The NWTF recently bought 4900 acres in Escambia County AL to turn into a wildlife refuge. They are planning on making it some sort of recreation area. This land was bought by a private land owner several years back but had been leased for years before. The press release didn't mention anything about hunting on the property so I guess we will have to wait and see about that. Have you guys ever heard of them buying land and what's your thoughts on it??

It will be used for hunting and recreational opportunities.

NWTF has had a big push for providing access to land and creating more opportunity.

Stony, where is this land located? This is in my neck of the woods.

Their new initiative is "Save The Habitat. Save The Hunt." They have noticed that the average age of those buying hunting licenses are rising and are trying to get youth back into the sport. That and declining turkey numbers have brought forth their new fight to acquiring land teach youth about gun safety, hunting, woodsmanship, through the JAKES program. I'm sure that you could hunt the land but it will more of a tool for the NWTF than a hunting destination. I believe they are doing similar projects around the country as well.

It starts behind the Flomaton baseball fields and goes up Big Escambia Creek to the old landfill in Sardis. It's what we always called the "roadside tables" where those old picnic tables were past Bondurant Lumber. I've killed a bunch of turkeys in there but it's been years since I hunted it. It was always club land until recently when the developer from Destin bought it. Maybe they will use it for the jakes program. It always had some birds on it.

Gotcha, thanks. I know exactly where you're talking about.

That's great news to hear! To actually be able to see results from the money we pour into the federation here in Alabama will be nice!

They waste money on things like this meanwhile parts of N bama still have zero population of birds. That's why I been done with them for a long time

Kinda what I was thinking too.

and we have some of the best turkey habitat dont we?

All those big ag fields by me...tons of corrn and soybeans fields. Hills, Hollars and swamps.

We had a few here but they vanished. Not sure why...but Id sure like to be able to hunt them here.

I don't know about a company buying a big tract of land like that for hunting habitat. Sounds fishy to me.

ducks unlimited does it all the time.

That's a habitat and disturbance issue. NWTF is one of the few organizations that puts their money where their mouth is. Of course there are business costs and salaries, but they do a lot for conservation. North AL does not have a lack of birds because of anyone ignoring the area. Birds simply don't do well up there, especially in the agricultural regions of the TN valley. If it's not in ag, it's got some type of business or development on it. Add disturbances from constant human presence and dogs, and you are not going to have many turkeys.

I disagree strongly I live in a high ag area, but we have plenty of hills, hollers, woods, cow pasture. Not much different than the places you see birds in every corner.

As a matter of fact we use to have birds in every corner, then they disappeared.

Matt I have to disagree with you on that. There a pockets of birds in this area. But has anyone been approached up here to restock? None of my landowning customers have? Now yall are working with my guys on deer but no nwtf for turkeys. I just have to say I can go on farms that are plenty big enough with perfect habitat and there's no birds for miles. It's not Ag causing it but if it is where's the nwtf to do studies on chicken litter or whatever study we need. You're good on a lot of stuff but I'm telling you were getting the shaft up here.

And southern middle tn as well, I agree whole heartedly 257

Guys, there have been turkey restockings in north AL, and in the areas that have the 5 day season or in some cases no season, with turkeys present, there is no reason or justification for introducing more. It's already been tried, and was a failure. If the existing turkey flocks are not reproducing well, or as some of you have said, disappearing, then seriously provide me with reasons to restock more. That makes no sense. Y'all agree you have no turkeys, but the habitat is there. You also agree there are pockets where turkeys are doing ok. If they could flourish up there they already would have. Turkeys do not do well in the TN valley, and you can disagree with me if you so choose about the various reasons why, but past experience and failed efforts prove it.

Here's an example. I had a customer the state showed up to restock with 5 gobblers and 3 hens one of which had a broken wing. Is that an effort? I say no. A joke. And we all know Morgan county should have more birds. I don't accept your Tn valley can't support birds "theory"

And with all that being said Matt I sure would be more than happy to be the lead for any contacts on studies or help in any way I can. I hope some of my leads can help on the deer study too. I'm not trying to back you down but I'm in the fields and woods all year long and something is being overlooked. We just need to find out what it is. Feel free to contact me. Jeremy did and I think he can vouch that I have some resources that maybe can help.

Well everyone else agrees it doesn't support them. Nobody agrees as to why. And honestly I don't have any strong arguments I believe in to support why, I just know they dont do well up there.

On your friends experience with the state showing up to restock birds, most people, even in the wildlife career, have NO idea how much effort, time, personnel, and $ it takes to locate, capture, safely transport, and release healthy birds somewhere they may or may not survive. It is an incredibly tedious task. I can say that because I've done it. If the state showed up with 7 out of 8 birds that could walk away from that experience I'd say it wasn't a joke, but a job well done.

I am visiting a landowner this week in north Lawrence county about this very discussion. I'll let you know how it goes.

If more folks would burn these cutovers up here it would help more than anything. I watched 5,000 of turkey paradise get turned into a jungle over a 10 yr period. The cut ground became too thick and the birds left. The same takes place on Skyline. I love cutovers for deer hunting,but they got to have fire to be turkey habitat. Yes they will slip in along the edges and nest but that's it.

If all those ag fields and cattle farms and chicken farm/ hay production operations had pine timber, it would be exactly the same landscape as the pine belt, and would have more turkey.

Some don't like that, but the pine belt is simply farming timber. And the populations there are more sustainable and consistent.

I know I'm not talking about north bama as I am in tennessee, I have no value as to population below the state line. But my argument with that is why could the 10000+ acres I have access to, support 3-400 birds 10 years ago, but no longer has a population over maybe 10.

It wasnt habitat change. If anything the habitat got better, there is something going on, what? I have no clue.

We have plenty of those pines as well, and planting 40,000 more this week

Rock hound maybe if the nwtf would spend a drop of what they're gonna pad a McMillan or whoever the large landowner down souths pocket is gonna be maybe we could find out but that wouldn't play into their cronyism agenda now would it?

Maybe the NWTF wants somebody to be able to hunt somewhere without having to pay more than a Yekrut or a Squeaky can afford.

I'm not in love with the NWTF, but it's something to think about.

The ignorance is abundant in this thread. The NWTF hasn't helped the population in your area so they're obviously not worth supporting? Maybe the NWTF is wiser with their money than you would be. Matt has already given you some educated and sound logic on the topic but you refuse to even acknowledge his statements could have some merit. If you won't believe an unbiased man who's educated in the matter, then I doubt you'd listen to anyone from the NWTF either. If you don't want to support them, then don't. Start your own group and solve the Tennessee Valley riddle. All these biologists are too stupid to do it and you know better.

Now if you don't mind, some of us don't care to read the poor mouthing you're doing about a group we think is doing a fair job. I'm not in love with them but I'm not going to run them in the ground and discourage others from supporting them.

I think investing time, money, and resources in a proven area is a lot smarter than one that is unproven.

Or you could plant corn in a desert over and over again....and again...

Might try a large landowner meeting with the NWTF and see if turning your farms into prime turkey habitat might help .
Clover fields wheat fields gobbler sawtooths etc , but I do agree with Matt some places just aren't good for turkeys , I use to see plenty of turkeys on our club during deer season and none literally during turkey season it was very frustrating so after many conversations with some well known outdoorsmen they said you don't have what the turkeys are looking for in the spring time , so in the fall we put out a lot of Durana Clover and Chicory in our fall plots ....Bingo !
Turkeys are back and well so I learned you have to manage for them and do what it takes I personally burn every other year on my place to help the habitat in hopes of making it a turkeys home .

Heres a simple way to look at the turkey habitat issue: if a hen doesnt have a good place to keep her eggs and her poults safe, she wont stay on your property. Keep the nesting and brood habitat as abundant as possible and you will have turkeys. Would you keep your kids in a dangerous neighborhood just because there was a steakhouse on every corner? Take some time to study your property and find out what might be the real issues to your declining turkey populations. Dont just throw stones at organizations that are trying to do good things to help all hunters. Is the NWTF perfect? No, they are far from it, But im willing to bet that the thousands of volunteers that work to further preserve the opportunities that we love so much, dont spend their days bitching because nobody dropped off some turkeys on their property.

The Flomaton Property was not purchased or bought by the NWTF. It was gifted to the NWTF by the current landowner. In addition, another tract was deeded and given to the NWTF by this same landowner and totals 400 acres along the Ala River near Prattville. All of this has just occurred in past month. Plans for both properties are being studied and birthed at this very moment... Exciting times for sure and more news to follow in future ahead.

257... The NWTF Super Fund Dollars are supporting more Wildlife Management Areas, National Forest Land and the like in North West and N E Alabama disproportionately now more than any other area of the State.

The NWTF helps private landowners by providing Chufa, fall seed subsidy/clover mix and round up ready corn and soybean opportunities at seriously reduced costs per bag. The Ala Chapter NWTF eats at least half of the price on a cost sharing basis. These programs listed as well as Archery in the Schools Program are supported by the Ala NWTF Specialty tag/license that is on vehicles across our State.

They cannot release turkey's in an uninhabitable area due to waste of resources. They are helping w research on the wild turkey decline in areas of the state. Auburn University and the ADCNR are teaming up to find out what is up.

In addition, the NWTF is paying for site assessment surveys before every land sale that the ADCNR purchase... Every single one!!

I don't understand your hostility and negative opinions shared earlier. I would love to get info in your hands to see a different picture that is ongoing. Just PM me and we will take it from there.
Just my 2 cents worth and Matt Brock's comments are spot on. He is truly a valuable resource in all of this.

Yeah & keeps it for the big dogs to hunt..One of the main reasons my buddy quit supporting them..

I'm a member of nwtf and am not bashing them, even though I have no knowledge of anything they have done around me, I blame it on twra more than anyone. We told them the turkeys disappeared but they told us they had to have 3 hard years of data to prove it, we'll 8 years later they can't figure out why we have no birds.

We have the habitat, and I understand the reason as to why they don't relocate until they find a reason, but I haven't seen the first study either.

There are bama members on here that has seen the decline I speak of. Areas that historically held 20+ gobblers a spring that might not have a bird on it but every couple of years now.

All that said our population is getting better, but slowly.

I'm doing my part. Making 7 new acres of food plot, planting 3 acres of sawtooth and chestnut in a place that was historically thicket for the majority of my life. Plus around the edges of food plots I'm planting trees. I've also killed around 60 coons this year plus some skunks and possums.

I knew this thread was gonna be a heated one; the corruption & mis-management of the NWTF is WELL DOCUMENTED; I have to agree with others that don't trust the NWTF buying land... A "national" organization buying up Alabama land? Man, I can't get happy about that... IJS

BGD

Well if they trot out a couple of famous college football coaches to tell us how great it is, every body will love it.

Unless your involved you dont have a clue just what all the NWTF does , dont bash it till youve tried it .
Scholarships , wheeling sportsman , Jakes , Women in the Outdoors , Feeding Communities year after year during Holidays , I personally have been involved in it all , if you use what they give you and work they can make a huge difference in your Communities .

How do you figure? The main thing I don't like about DU is they do most of their land work in areas outside of the south east. But they do have several impoundments around the south east that are refuge areas. I"ve also also hunted quite a few places out west that are in large part paid for by ducks unlimited and then added to the state hunting lands system.

I guess those are good and noble things, but what do they have to do with preserving and furthering wild turkey populations and wild turkey hunting opportunities? Seems like the #1 priority should be figuring out what is happening to the wild turkey populations in a bunch of states and how to correct and reverse it. Otherwise, you can get all the kids, women, and disabled folks outdoors you want but they aren't going to have any turkeys to hunt if the trends continue.

BTW, I've been informed that apparently the land was donated to the NWTF, not bought by the NWTF... Changes the circumstances quite a bit, in my mind...

We actually have GIANT wheat fields everywhere around up here. My neighbors have about 2000 acres of winter wheat right now. It is wheat until mid spring then 50% corn 50% beans.

We used to have a good population. Enough that we thought we were going to be able to hunt them soon. (Im in the area where there is NO hunting allowed at all.)

We also have a ton of food plots in Durana clover everywhere. My neighbors too. Im speaking of over 5000 acres of land too. 70% are ag fields, 20% mixed woods with pines and hardwoods..lots of acorns, 10% swamp or creek bottom.

One flock of around 30 birds,..including 5-6 nice longbeards would be around my property everyday around 6 - 7 years ago. Id hear some good gobbling in early spring too.

But in less then a year they all were gone...and Ive not seen another turkey again.

It seemed to coincide EXACTLY with my neighbor fertilizing with chicken litter. After that summer not another turkey for going on 6 years. I think theres definitely a correlation.

Also, I know Fish and Game is concerned about it. I was at a meeting at the Swan Creek WMA that was hosted by a bunch of biologists working on the turkeys and asking landowners for their input.
They had a biologist from Auburn there as well as a few Fish and Game Biologists.

Was run by a young guy..with big ears...kinda funny looking..but I guess he was some kind of state biologist for fish and game with some degree or something.

I tell you...for a young guy he did seem to know alot...one of those geeky high filutin college educated computer types I reckon ..( Matt Brock..lol)

Just joking Matt! lol..

It was run by our very own Matt Brock...and he did a good job too.

So the state is trying to figure it out.


I cant say its high predators as we BLAST every coyote or bobcat seen. It seemed to me to be much more related to the chicken litter. Those coyotes had been about the same even when I was seeing a bunch of birds.

The only DIFFERENCE was the introduction of the chicken litter as fertilizer. IMO.

Could've been worded better I didn't mean all the property..

I support the NWTF 100%, and love what they do and have done. I also know that biologist such as Matt Brock are credible, know what they are doing, and I think do a great job. Alabama is the best state in the nation for hunting just about all species, imo. But it is strictly limited to the southern portion of the state. If it was feasible for myself and my family, or if was a bachelor with no family, I'd move just to fuel my turkey hunting passion.

There can be birds in limestone and Lauderdale county, they flourished for several years after restocking efforts. They can flourish north Into Tennessee in Giles and Lawrence county. It was a sudden loss in birds, in about two from 2006-2008, in this area. There are no birds in areas where they used to be many. No habitat changes, AT ALL. I can vouch for mr. Rockhound, because he and I have seen the same thing within the same areas over the same period of time.

I still believe the turkeys will "reload and repopulate" themselves, but it has been a slow process. All we can do as land owners and or mangers up here is take matters into our own hands and provide for the wild turkey all we can. This doesn't mean filling up a 50 gallon corn feeder and calling it even, this means do what you can to promote nesting and brooding habitat.

That is all we can do. Maybe, just maybe one day the biologist of AL will focus a little more on it than the the blackbelt, and TN biologist will start listening to the people.

End rant.

[quote=btbab10]It was a sudden loss in birds, in about two from 2006-2008, in this area. There are no birds in areas where they used to be many. No habitat changes, AT ALL. I can vouch for mr. Rockhound, because he and I have seen the same thing within the same areas over the same period of time.

See my post two above yours!

That is THE EXACT time period we lost all our birds as well. Were farmers fertilizing with chicken litter from poultry farms there too?
And youve never seen such great turkey habitat. You look at it and it screams PERFECT for TURKEYS. Agfields with creek bottoms, wooded hollows and hills. Looks like in the midwest where in similiar terrain there would be tons of birds.

One more thing to add....

There are some true turkey hunters/killers/people or whatever yall call them that live in the north part of Alabama. But there are not near as many. People down south have been "farming for turkeys" forever, where as up north, not many people even care. It isn't in their DNA to kill turkeys.

Help me understand - what is the correlation between chicken litter & lack of birds? We've used chicken litter for years on our farm, and our populations are GROWING (in SE AL).

BGD

Yes, ever since the economy went to hell in 2007, farmers went the cheaper route of spreading chicken litter instead of fertilizer, which I don't blame them, they trying to make a living.

I do know that chicken litter is a possible cause, causing disease, but until proven I think it was weather or other factors stacked up several years in a row that detrimented poult survival, and we are still recovering. The invasion of armidillos in 2007 as will as stupid feral hogs have not helped.

I have heard dont use litter as well because it will kill turkeys .

Now this is a plausible explanation that I could believe in. Perhaps chicken litter spread AT THE WRONG TIME could be a factor, but I'm telling you -- my dad started spreading chicken litter on our 300 acre farm YEARS ago & we've not seen a detrimental impact to our turkey populations at all. None.

BGD

Improper composting or heat cycle of contaminated litter can carry pathogens harmful to Avians such as turkeys. Chickens are vaccinated against these diseases in some cases but when it hits the field turkeys are susceptible. But there again Alfa is behind chicken growers so good luck with us getting anything changed there

we dont have any hogs at all in our areas. And I didnt see an armadillo all year.

For the life of me I cant figure it out. And that is the only thing I saw different. If it has happened in a lot of areas (even in TN I have heard) where they went to chicken litter then there might very well be a correlation. The biologists at the meeting were trying to figure it out.

I have heard that turkeys can get the blackhead disease from chicken litter. Also that any avian sickness can be transferred to the turkeys, maybe one that domestic chickens dont perish from..but wild turkeys do.

I has been said to cause disease called blackhead, which effects the liver and cecum of wild turkeys. In short, there is a parasite eggs and ceca worms that go through the chicken, and then distributed through the field. The turkeys can eat a ln earth worm or something in the field, that earth worm would be host to ceca worm eggs, turkeys eat it, then get sick from the ceca worm.

Something like that. Get a real biologist or a poultry specialist guy to tell you better.

That is exactly what I had heard and was reffering to.

And that is also what I referred to. I see we all have heard the exact same things too.

Wow, 10-4; I'm not disputing what you guys are saying, just trying to understand what "biological" deal is going on w/chicken litter & turkeys... Admittedly, now, MOST of the turkeys that are on our land have roosting & nesting locations on neighboring property where the use of litter is NOT being used at all (can't, it's forested)... But, my dad spreads litter out on our pastures all the time, and birds are feeding in those pastures frequently...

Interesting; I'll have to ask around about this & see what others are seeing...

BGD

Chickens are somewhat resistant to this disease. It has a high mortality rate to turkeys.

Last year, the TN biologist were at checking stations taking birds killed opening weekend and testing them, supposedly for blackhead. I still haven't heard any info about it. I thought it was silly, they die pretty quickly if they get blackhead, not sure what they were going to find, but hey, they are the biologist, they got the degree for it, so I will trust them for now.

That is why I said earlier that I do not think it is litter, but if it is, I could believe it.

Farmer's did not start spreading more litter in 2007. It isn't like they could ramp up litter production because fertilizer got more expensive. Litter has been being produced and used for fertilizer for a long time.

YEP! Like I said, we've been using it for ... God, I don't know HOW long now...

Yes litter has been used for a long time for production but here's a thought. It used to not be in such high demand. It used to sit in piles and go through heat cycles that would kill bacteria. Long about 2007-08 commodity prices soared so did fertilizer prices. Farmers bought litter at a more rapid pace such as straight out the chicken house to the field. No time for piles the demand outpaced supply so it was all haulers and spreaders could do to keep up. Was that when it started?? I don't know but sure seems to add up. Now we're back to commercial fertilizer being as cheap as litter so demand has slowed So now we're piling it back up. I'm just brainstorming here from my Ag input mind.

More chicken houses

Thats exactly what I was implying earlier. I still see more chicken litter than I used to though.

Ad someone stated, chicken litter is not a problem of it goes through a hea cycle.

BUT, the chicken litter I see getting spread is straight from the barn, it hasn't had time to go through a heat, at least not the top layer....

I'm sure the executives will love the new property!

With all the ag going on any chance " Crow B Gone " could be killing turkeys ....if a crow eats it and it dies wouldn't a
turkey do the same ?

Blessed that product was pulled off the market years ago cause it had Lindane in it. It didn't kill crows it just repelled them.

Ok was curious if it could have caused some of it

I am reviving an old thread here after finding the 4,530 acres near Flomaton that was "gifted" is now for sale for over 4 million dollars.

https://www.landandfarm.com/property/4530_Acres_in_Escambia_County-7870878

So, has this property been open for hunting the last few years?

Does anybody know the actual details of what’s happening here?

Because here’s the way it looks from the limited information I see - the NWTF was gifted 4000+ acres, they spend a few years setting up a conservation easement, turn around and offer to sell the property for profit, and handcuff the buyer with some restrictions related to the easement for 10 years. The buyer gets a hunting property and a little timber to manage, which is likely governed in some way by the easement. The NWTF “feel good” is they “saved” the habitat for a short time.

All the while, the average turkey hunter did not gain access to hunting lands.

What am I missing?

It's not in an easement for 10 years, the easement lasts forever.

I don't really see the big deal. The original post started out by people acting like the NWTF was wasting money on private land purchase. Now they're selling it back to the private market. They reaped the benefits of this gift and now this property will likely remain good turkey habitat, and NWTF can spend these millions elsewhere.

Wide spread use of chicken litter = wide spread decline in turkey populations. I have seen it first hand and nothing will convince me otherwise. No one can explain to me how a property can go from excellent numbers to very few birds in a years time. They either left or died from disease. It has happened to me on two properties in two different counties I have hunted over the years that consisted of Ag. I have some friends that are farmers and they can't figure out what happened to their turkey's either. They use chicken litter almost exclusively and they no longer have turkeys like they once did. This goes for the surrounding areas as well. This part of Covington County use to be loaded with birds until commercial fertilizer cost sky rocketed and wide spread use of chicken litter became the norm.

The properties I hunt that does not have any ag around and the timber is managed have strong populations of birds.

We must have a resistant strain of birds up here then. Just this week I know where 4 different flocks are with 40+ birds per flock and the farmers that work that area use litter. I’m not saying all litter is same cause it’s not but it can’t be 100% the litter

I started reading this and got halfway through the thread before I realized it was old. I wonder what happened to jlcoffee? He posted regularly for years and then just disappeared.

A state nwtf guy told me several years ago that a study had proven the link between chicken litter and turkey decline and they were gonna get something done. It was mentioned in this forum by a state biologist too. Nothing ever happened. I guess the Chicken Mafia did their thing.

Can't blame the nwtf for monetizing the gift. If the original landowners intended for it to be a public hunting area they could have easily fixed it so that would happen. It must not have been their intention.

I figure they’ll do something about chicken litter when they do something about clear cutting pretty hardwoods.

Monte Sano killed them all!

Matt I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated all chicken litter is not the same. As long as farmers are allowed to use litter straight from the house to the field then I believe we will have problems in those areas where that practice is being used. I am also a firm believer diseases have become resistant to what use to kill them as this has been proven over our history. I don't think there has been enough research done on the use of chicken litter in the true effects it has on wild bird populations. Diseases are always evolving and what once use to be an effective measure might not be applicable any more.

I understand farmers need to making a living the best way they can! I would do the same if my livelihood depended on it. I also agree litter is most likely not 100% to blame but I do feel it plays a bigger part than we all realize. The chicken farming industry is supported by big money and truth be known, we will never know what part chicken litter plays in the decline of our turkey population.

I will say for certainty that a lot of my Midwest property is very similar to the area I hunted in Dallas County and your part of Alabama. I do not have a problem with turkey numbers on my properties in the Midwest. The only differences I have seen are timber management practices and the use of chicken litter. The predator population is out of control on these Midwest farms but the turkey population continues to thrive. You will not find a place any where in the country that has more coons and heathy population of coyotes. Even the bobcat population is thriving due to the state protecting them.

Couldnt possibly be the thousands and thousands of gallons of chemicals that are being sprayed around ag areas now

Id just like to know why..
Turkeys do well somewhere and then for no apparent reason.....they...poof....gone...no change in habitat...just as good as anywhere in jackson county.....actually is pretty much in jackson county....an they just disappeared....i know the statedoes all they really can do...but i sure would like to see turkeys closer than 40 miles away to hunt...gettin tard of havin to drive so far

At $954/acre that's not a bad deal, as long as you can live with the restrictions. For the right business person looking to invest in a recreational property it would be a good fit.

With those restrictions, it ain't worth that...

Here's my theory - most of the decline in population is just due to the habitat. No habitat stays the same, it is constantly changing and if you aren't specifically managing for poult production it is likely getting a little worse every year. Trees grow, the ground gets shaded more and there is less nesting cover. Hardwoods are pretty, but they don't produce poults.

When turkeys are introduced into a new area, the population exploded. Even if the nesting habitat is marginal, the nest predators haven't seen turkeys before and aren't out hunting the nests. As time goes along, they learn to do just that, and pass that ability to their offspring. And then one year the weather is bad and their is no poult recruitment at all and the population plunges. Most of the turkeys we see are less than a year old, so losing just one year slashes the number you see. Losing 2 years means you see very few. I think we got populations of turkeys in some areas of the state after reintroduction that are just not capable of sustaining them long term.

This doesn't explain the overnight losses some of you are describing. That would have to be a disease issue, and it could be related to chicken litter. Maybe not. I'm sorry for any area that has lost its turkeys, and I sure hope they return. I hate to see hunting blamed for it; I don't think legal hunting of spring gobblers has a thing to do with it, but that is where the research seems to be focusing.

I agree.

But maybe we could start a QTMA program and kill all the hens that are taking the mature gobblers' food, and then we'd have more mature gobblers. Even small populations on hens could be blamed on the lack of mature gobblers, and turkey hunters could be allowed 2 hens per day, all season.

I'll put some hens in the freezer. They eat good!

Anecdotally, I used to hunt a place jam up with turkeys then they started spreading chicken litter over large tracts of Corp land in the area. It looked like the fields were covered in feathers and poop. The population near those field rock bottomed afterwards And those big pretty field were where the turkeys always wanted to be.