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Interesting stats on stopping power #811330
01/07/14 08:51 AM
01/07/14 08:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 44,211
North Alabama
W
Wiley Coyote Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Wiley Coyote  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
W
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 44,211
North Alabama
of different handgun calibers.....and a centerfire rifle and shotgun for comparison

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866


I firmly believe that a double gallows should be constructed on the East Lawn of The White House. Politicians who willfully and shamelessly violate their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America should be swiftly tried and, upon conviction, publicly hanged at sunup the day after conviction. If multiple convicts are to be hanged they can choose with whom to share the gallows or names shall be drawn from the hangman's hat to be hanged 2 at a time.




NRA Life Member
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811367
01/07/14 09:18 AM
01/07/14 09:18 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 20,017
PDL, Fl
T
timbercruiser Offline
Freak of Nature
timbercruiser  Offline
Freak of Nature
T
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 20,017
PDL, Fl
I'm surprised that there isn't a wider range in results as you go from the .22 up to the .45.

Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: timbercruiser] #811412
01/07/14 09:53 AM
01/07/14 09:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,900
Huntsville AL
Rocket62 Offline
14 point
Rocket62  Offline
14 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,900
Huntsville AL
Originally Posted By: ARTICLE
Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.


Very interesting




I don't want to pass quietly into the night. I want to slide in sideways kickin and screamin
Life really is awesome ... Soak it up while you can ...
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811455
01/07/14 10:28 AM
01/07/14 10:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 10,509
coffee county
goodman_hunter Online content
Booner
goodman_hunter  Online Content
Booner
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 10,509
coffee county
to me.for self defense.n public. a smaller gun that i can carry easily and always keeps me safer than my high capacity bigger caliber pistol that i am more limited n carrying.this just reinforced my thinking


For without victory, there is no survival
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811499
01/07/14 11:10 AM
01/07/14 11:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,565
Cape San Blas, Florida
D
Deadwood Offline
Footbsll Bat PSYOPS
Deadwood  Offline
Footbsll Bat PSYOPS
D
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,565
Cape San Blas, Florida
There's been a world of improvements in the ammo world since the gruesome 1991-1992 Strasbourg Goat tests, brought about, in part, because of a disastrous Miami shootout in 1986 or so (Silvertip Ammo, I think).



Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811620
01/07/14 12:42 PM
01/07/14 12:42 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,573
Petal,MS,USA
SFC3 Offline
10 point
SFC3  Offline
10 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,573
Petal,MS,USA
Read that study...one reason a Ruger SR-22 does on a lot of road trips...


Grumpy Old MS Bastage
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: SFC3] #811629
01/07/14 12:48 PM
01/07/14 12:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 97
South Baldwin
B
bohica Offline
spike
bohica  Offline
spike
B
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 97
South Baldwin
the best gun to take to a gun fight is the one you have on you. doesn't matter if its a 22 or 45 won't do any good sitting in a drawer at home.

Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: bohica] #811632
01/07/14 12:50 PM
01/07/14 12:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,877
in the corner
S
Stob Offline
14 point
Stob  Offline
14 point
S
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,877
in the corner
I'd really like a 8-10 shot .22mag snubby.

Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811639
01/07/14 12:56 PM
01/07/14 12:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,838
Parts Unknown
Cletus Offline
10 point
Cletus  Offline
10 point
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,838
Parts Unknown

Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811640
01/07/14 12:57 PM
01/07/14 12:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,838
Parts Unknown
Cletus Offline
10 point
Cletus  Offline
10 point
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,838
Parts Unknown
I will stick to 9,40, and shotgun

Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811874
01/07/14 04:15 PM
01/07/14 04:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,018
Mt. Olive
Sharpshooter69 Offline
12 point
Sharpshooter69  Offline
12 point
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,018
Mt. Olive
I'll stick to my .40 cals, .45ACP and a 12ga.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #811890
01/07/14 04:28 PM
01/07/14 04:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 917
Skyline. Alabama
H
hillmp63 Offline
6 point
hillmp63  Offline
6 point
H
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 917
Skyline. Alabama
There is no degree of dead, and dead stops the threat.

Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #812527
01/08/14 08:24 AM
01/08/14 08:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,793
alabama
J
judge sharpe Offline
8 point
judge sharpe  Offline
8 point
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,793
alabama
I think that the smaller calibers are effective because more people can hit with them and are not afraid to shoot enough to be come semi-proficient. Larger calibers are great if you can hit with them.


Let us cross over the river and rest in the shade of the trees
Stonewall Jackson
Hug your loved ones often, Life is short even on its longest days.
I don't see the glass as half full or half empty. I just finish it and order another.
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Stob] #812662
01/08/14 10:36 AM
01/08/14 10:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,720
Central, Al
Bustinbeards Offline
Booner
Bustinbeards  Offline
Booner
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,720
Central, Al
Originally Posted By: Stob
I'd really like a 8-10 shot .22mag snubby.
hey Stob, looking for something like this??
http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/5212-north-american-arms-22-magnum-mini-revolver


Originally Posted By: Wiley Coyote
Well, the way I see it is there's just too many assholes
On a good day there's a bunch of assholes in here. On a bad day there's too many assholes in here.
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Wiley Coyote] #812672
01/08/14 10:40 AM
01/08/14 10:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 26,030
Prattville, Alabama
Skullworks Offline
Freak of Nature
Skullworks  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 26,030
Prattville, Alabama
Pretty interesting real life read.

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/a...mmo-on-the-job/

"Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty
inShare3

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.

Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”

He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.
Expert Analysis
Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant

By Charles Remsberg

Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:

1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”

2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.

An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.

Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.

“I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.

He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.

Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.

The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”

With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.

“He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.

The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.

“I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”

Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.

A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.

The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.

Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.

Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.

Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.

“I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.

In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.

But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.

Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.

Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.

He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.

“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.

At least one alteration was emphatically practical.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”


"I'm not near as critical about how big they are as I once was. Smiles are more important now! We will grow more deer."
Jimmy G.
Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: Skullworks] #813140
01/08/14 04:39 PM
01/08/14 04:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,282
Tennessee
FLGunslinger Offline
8 point
FLGunslinger  Offline
8 point
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,282
Tennessee
In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this.

One other factor to consider is that the majority of these shootings did NOT involve shooting through intermediate barriers, cover or heavy clothing. If you anticipate having to do this in your life (i.e. you are a police officer and may have to shoot someone in a car), again, I would lean towards the larger or more powerful rounds.

In my opinion,the moral of the story is to carry the biggest, most powerful caliber you can shoot accurately.


Audentis Fortuna Iuvat

Re: Interesting stats on stopping power [Re: FLGunslinger] #813339
01/08/14 06:58 PM
01/08/14 06:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 595
St. Clair, Alabama
B
Bucky205 Offline
4 point
Bucky205  Offline
4 point
B
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 595
St. Clair, Alabama
When I was in the Navy stationed in San Diego one of the guys fathers owned a junk yard out in the sticks that had some vehicles fixing to be crushed that he said we could use for CBOT. We came up with the idea of testing how bullets performed after passing through different materials. We being the fun loving, I mean training oriented guys that we were, talked the skipper into letting us go train for 3 days. We placed dummies in vehicles and behind things and for three days we fired everything we could lay hands on at them. Here's some things we discovered.

In handguns. Bullets that do the greatest tissue damage don't do as well after passing through a windshield or other material. Many broke all to pieces after passing through a windshield. Short of an FMJ the best handgun bullets we tested were the Speer Gold Dots. Best auto caliber was the .357SIG, it even outperformed the .45, mostly because of penetrating power, and these were shoot through test. 9 and .40 did a good job in most of the test with he .40 doing the greater damage, .380 not so much.

You get some really crazy stuff with a single 5.56 through a windshield. Bullet starts tumbling and there are all kinds of crazy holes it makes.

.308 FMJ did fairly well in the test, no problem through a car windshield out to 300 yards.

.338 Lapua Magnum FMJ at 300 yards would penetrate a Kevlar helmet behind a car window. If someone is shooting at you with one, try to find some really thick stuff to hide behind.

there was nothing we could find in the junk yard that would stop a .50CAL

LOL, Before you beat me up about this not being scientific and not testing every bullet ever manufactured , you have to realize this was a hell of a lot of fun.


"There are no easy days, not even yesterday"

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