For you Theologists on here, and I appreciate your input, but please keep in mind when you use big words like dispensationalist and a few others in the thread, it would be very helpful to include what they mean or use simple terms for those of us that didn't go to seminary. Having to stop and look it up interrupts the flow of reading and learning and I don't know if I'm being insulted or not.

Dispensationalist = most but not necessarily all Baptist, Pentecostals, most independent churches, Church of God, Missionary Baptist, ect. Most but not necessarily all are also Premillennialist.
Presbyterian, Church Of Christ, Lutheran, Orthodox, ect are mostly but not necessarily all are Amillennialist or Preterist.
Some Presbyterian and Methodists are Postmillennialist but certainly not all.
Now is that clear as mud!😁

Starting in verse Romans 11:17 are the branches that are broken off not the unbelieving Jews? The Gentiles are grafted into their place and both Jewish Christians & Gentile Christians partake of salvation thru Christ? Galatians 3:28-29.

PCP would it make sense that when Paul wrote this that he believed that all of the Jews would convert eventually? I wonder if he even comprehended that the nation of Israel and the religion that God had ordained would still be denying Him 2000 years after He came to redeem them?

That's my understanding - sometime close to His return a remnant of Israel will believe the Gospel and be saved. I think it means that only those who believe will make up "all Israel;" seems to me that the rest of them will perish. There is only one way to be saved - believe the Gospel, and that will never change.

Ridgestalker, that is how understand the world to be now. I think it's blasphemy of the worst sort that some teach that Jews have an alternative way to God. I've seen people reach conclusions about the olive tree metaphor that were all over the place. It's a difficult passage, but the conclusion Paul gives us in ch 11 seems easy - they are our enemies but one day some of them will believe.

At some point, everyone will believe. There is no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean they are saved from hell.

Genesis 17:8 – “And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING (Hebrew word olam) possession; and I will be their God.”

Concerning temple practices under the Law, holy days, etc:
Exodus 12:14 – “ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOR EVER (olam).”
Exodus 27:21 – “… it shall be a statute FOR EVER (olam) unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.”
Exodus 28:43 – “… it shall be a statute FOR EVER (olam) unto him and his seed after him.”
Exodus 29:9 – “… and the priest’s office shall be their’s for a PERPETUAL (olam) statute.”
Exodus 31:16 – “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL (olam) covenant.”

I can give tens more examples. Now, concerning all these elements of the Mosaical covenant that were said to be “for ever”, are they still in effect or were all these only in effect while the covenant was in effect? We read in Hebrews 8 that the old covenant has been "made obsolete" because essentially it has been fulfilled by Christ who, in Himself, offers a new and better covenant with better promises. Is the Levitical priesthood still operable or is Christ now the singular “Great High Priest” and the perfect example of how “for ever” can be fulfilled? Are we still to observe the sabbath as the spiritual descendants of Abraham? The list goes on and on.

Strong’s Concordance and Brown-Driver-Briggs define olam as “long duration, antiquity, futurity”. Proper hermeneutics cannot ignore the very definition of the word as it was used in its original form and language. You are correct in saying that one cannot change what the word means. Who is guilty of such?

All elements of the promise were fulfilled in the OT (Joshua 21:43-45, Nehemiah 9:7-8) except the ultimate portion which was to bless all nations through Abraham's Seed; this promise came later through Christ. Again, Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of all the promises; God did not fail on one single promise. The Jews may have understood things one way, but it’s no secret that they often mistook spiritual promises for earthly promises. Abraham certainly understood the truth of the matter because the gospel was preached to him beforehand.

Concerning Romans 11 and the remnant… this is not a future event. Verse 5 – “So too, AT THE PRESENT TIME there is a remnant chosen by grace.” PCP you’re making an admission of the concept of “spiritual Israel” when you reason that “all of Israel” is limited to those that believe. This is the entire premise of chapters 9-11. God had not cast away Israel, rather He had cast away nonbelievers and grafted in believing Gentiles along with believing Jews. The apostles certainly weren’t looking forward to or preaching an earthly kingdom. The Kingdom has been prepared since the creation (Matt 25:34) and it, the inheritance, will be given after judgement. This inheritance is kept in heaven, not here on earth (1 Peter 1:4).

Jwalker, you were on a good track when you mentioned a new heaven and earth. New Jerusalem is along those same lines of thought. The church is called “New Jerusalem” (Gal 4:25-26, Rev 3:12). Also, Hebrews 12:22-28 – “But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel… Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken (current and spiritual) let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe”. He continues with this same thought in 13:14, “For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.” This city, New Jerusalem, is described in Revelation 21. Also, 2 Peter 3:7-13 – “By the same word the present heaven and earth are reserved or fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly… That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”

Again, Christ is currently reigning as the head of His Kingdom, the church. 1 Cor 15:24 – “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.” When is death to be destroyed? After the judgement. How then, if death is to be destroyed at the second coming/judgement, could Christ’s “1000” year reign begin then; just when we’re told it will end?

Why are some reliant on the definitions of unbelieving Jews? Why are some continuing to insist on the existence of divisions where the inspired writers have reiterated that all divisions have been destroyed and both Jew and Gentile are added into one body, the church? What element of the promise to Abraham has God not kept that He must keep in the future in an earthly manner?

SE, you do a good job defending the position, but once again confuse the unconditional covenant with Abraham and the conditional covenant through Moses. The promises of the Mosaic covenant all required their obedience, and if they didn't obey they would be cursed instead of blessed. The covenant with Abraham is unconditional - he didn't have to do anything in order for it to remain in effect. And for ever means for ever. Well, actually God said later that when the sun, moon, and stars fall from the sky He might reconsider, but that was a literary device.

I don't have time to go through all your points, but there really isn't any point to that anyway. I think those here who were really curious have enough information to continue to study. They are the only reason I posted in the thread. I would again encourage everyone to use their own reading skills with the Bible and reject every manmade system; all of them are flawed.

A good day to all!

all of the "isms" are pretty much man made. I get so sick of all the "isms" catholicism,protestantism,mormanism,calvanism ,Armenianism and on and on and on