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by jhix3734 - 05/20/25 01:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,838
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,838 |
Nothing, they will study the information for 5 or so years and then determine that further changes in the Game Check is necessary for further study. Another 5 or so year study, repeat. This is the answer..........but I say it won't take 5 years before the data gathered is deemed less valid than the hunter surveys. Then the tags will be pushed harder. It's kind of like making a push for single payer healthcare..........it can't be done all at once.........it has to be incrementally.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,083
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,083 |
Nothing, they will study the information for 5 or so years and then determine that further changes in the Game Check is necessary for further study. Another 5 or so year study, repeat. This is the answer..........but I say it won't take 5 years before the data gathered is deemed less valid than the hunter surveys. Then the tags will be pushed harder. It's kind of like making a push for single payer healthcare..........it can't be done all at once.........it has to be incrementally. Absolutely agree. I'd like to see results in other states before I get behind this. Can anyone produce such results? Or are we re-inventing the wheel?
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,083
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,083 |
Clem, do we want our deer population to go up or down?
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780 |
I am no biologist but just from the numbers you gave I would say Dallas county was basically unchanged if you were to chart it out on an SPC chart but something was possibly causing a negative trend in Winston county. At which time I would use my resources to further investigate Winston county's deer herd and it's health instead of not knowing there may be a problem there until it was too late and would then have to take drastic measures to reverse..... with the data and a little more investigation I may find nothing or I may find I need to adjust something to stabilize or increase the deer population. How do you know it's not just lower hunter participation? Licenses won't tell you where a person actually hunts. There's all kinds of data you can draw from. Total kill numbers yes, sex of kills, yes, but also date of kill, hunter success by license, hunter success by sex, etc I believe that year to year your avg hunter success will be just as telling as total harvest in a county. To simplify, if the avg entry by hunter, in Winston county is 1 buck, 3 does the first year, then 5 years later that has steadily decreased to .5 buck, 1 doe, it would be obvious there's a significant decrease in quantity, unless regulations changed. That could also be very telling, when the season was broken down into sections, bow season, early gun, mid, late, whenever the rut is, etc. this would tell you whether the deer were there, and just being over pressured, disappearing later in the season. Combine several years of total harvest, Buck/doe harvest ratio, avg success per participant, and when the deer were killed. If you can't paint a pretty accurate picture off that, then you aren't trying. Yes, but the testing sample needs to remain as close as possible for the entire 5 years. In other words as an example, on a five year sample, in year 3 hunting directly over bait becomes legal. This will affect the numbers one way or the other. Laws and rules could remain the same for a 5 year test but there a lot of uncontrollable factors from weather to the economy that can effect harvest numbers. Let me say again, I'm on the fence on the matter and can see valid points from both sides.
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,678
I'm Honey Lou Lou and I voted for Obama... Twice!!!
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I'm Honey Lou Lou and I voted for Obama... Twice!!!
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,678 |
Mine wouldn't let me register deer last year
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361 |
What the data cannot tell you is how many deer should have been killed.
That percentage is based on what you want to do with the overall deer population, such as increase, maintain, or decrease. Fawn recruitment plays a major factor in this.
It seem there are many pieces in this complicated puzzle that, I for one, am glad that I don't have to try and figure out.
If I see 100 deer in a season and choose only to kill 3, what does the reported data tell you? 3 deer have been killed. If the next year I only see 3 deer and kill them all, what does the reported data tell you? 3 deer have been killed. With many clubs having different standards today than in the past, many deer or young bucks are being passed on that used to would have been killed. I certainly don't have any answers and do not envy those that have to make the decisions. No decision they make will ever be right, in many people's mind. I just enjoy hunting and want this sport to be preserved.
As I've said before, using only harvest data is like trying to drive forward by only looking at your rearview mirror.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,595
Bright Eyes
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Bright Eyes
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,595 |
Reckon why they are having the seminars? 
Matt Brock wears knock-off Crocs.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130 |
Clem, do we want our deer population to go up or down? I think you'd get 575 duzen answers with that question, to be honest. Personally, I don't have to see or want to see 30 or 40 deer every time I go out "like the good ol' days" because I think those numbers were too high. I don't go out to watch deer. If I want to watch deer then I'll go to Cades Cove and have a Red Bull while cruising with Maw-Maw to enjoy wildlife. During hunting season I want to kill what I want and think we need, period, and it does not have to have rack-monster antlers or even any antlers at all. As a state we went from virtually no deer, to "don't shoot does or you'll go to hell" and growing populations, to probably over-populated situations in many areas, to "kill more does" and 2-a-day for maybe too long with predation and disease also affecting mortality, to where we are today ... which is some areas probably OK and some are hurting badly. IF this check-in system is accepted and IF it works with Matt and the other deer biologists obtaining good usable information and IF the lever-pullers and political shitstirrers in Mungumry and elsewhere allow them to make biological-based decisions then it could possibly help. Those are big "if" situations, though I think they're starting to be accepted. Ohio has, as in that earlier post on this thread, a rigid check system and has drilled down to specific counties/zones. Their hunters STILL complain about their deer population. Wisconsin does the same and they have county-by-county groups that meet to discuss deer numbers and suggest things to the state.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,083
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 22,083 |
Clem, do we want our deer population to go up or down? I think you'd get 575 duzen answers with that question, to be honest. Personally, I don't have to see or want to see 30 or 40 deer every time I go out "like the good ol' days" because I think those numbers were too high. I don't go out to watch deer. If I want to watch deer then I'll go to Cades Cove and have a Red Bull while cruising with Maw-Maw to enjoy wildlife. During hunting season I want to kill what I want and think we need, period, and it does not have to have rack-monster antlers or even any antlers at all. As a state we went from virtually no deer, to "don't shoot does or you'll go to hell" and growing populations, to probably over-populated situations in many areas, to "kill more does" and 2-a-day for maybe too long with predation and disease also affecting mortality, to where we are today ... which is some areas probably OK and some are hurting badly. IF this check-in system is accepted and IF it works with Matt and the other deer biologists obtaining good usable information and IF the lever-pullers and political shitstirrers in Mungumry and elsewhere allow them to make biological-based decisions then it could possibly help. Those are big "if" situations, though I think they're starting to be accepted. Ohio has, as in that earlier post on this thread, a rigid check system and has drilled down to specific counties/zones. Their hunters STILL complain about their deer population. Wisconsin does the same and they have county-by-county groups that meet to discuss deer numbers and suggest things to the state. That's my point Clem. If the state doesn't even know whether our deer population needs to go up or down, none of this data matters.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,858
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,858 |
Y'all are whining like a bunch of doe killers that want to hunt over a feeder.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,494
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,494 |
It really all boils down to this. The arrogance of government is going to do what the hell it wants to do and there will be enough folks that whine wanting the government to "fix their problem" that the government is more than willing to use force to do what the hell they want. Simple case in point, Chuck Sykes et al arrogantly tried ramming the MANDATORY game check down the public's throat earlier and was rebuffed then he whistles along then does it again crying that the voluntary system just wasn't providing them with adequate information so he rams it through again with the force of government behind it and still cannot provide a clear explanation of how, why or what information is important. All that matters is that they get the information at any cost and if not we will punish those that don't provide the precious specific information to be used against their statistical guess to then determine that the specific information is less accurate than their statistical guess!
But, that's okay Micromanaging at the State level to achieve uncontrollable outcomes is always the best management style, if you don't believe it just ask the government!
Carry on!
Last edited by Fun4all; 06/14/16 05:09 AM.
"After all, it is not the killing that brings satisfaction; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." Dr. Saxton Pope
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,501 Likes: 2
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,501 Likes: 2 |
I am no biologist but just from the numbers you gave I would say Dallas county was basically unchanged if you were to chart it out on an SPC chart but something was possibly causing a negative trend in Winston county. At which time I would use my resources to further investigate Winston county's deer herd and it's health instead of not knowing there may be a problem there until it was too late and would then have to take drastic measures to reverse..... with the data and a little more investigation I may find nothing or I may find I need to adjust something to stabilize or increase the deer population. How do you know it's not just lower hunter participation? Licenses won't tell you where a person actually hunts. There's all kinds of data you can draw from. Total kill numbers yes, sex of kills, yes, but also date of kill, hunter success by license, hunter success by sex, etc I believe that year to year your avg hunter success will be just as telling as total harvest in a county. To simplify, if the avg entry by hunter, in Winston county is 1 buck, 3 does the first year, then 5 years later that has steadily decreased to .5 buck, 1 doe, it would be obvious there's a significant decrease in quantity, unless regulations changed. That could also be very telling, when the season was broken down into sections, bow season, early gun, mid, late, whenever the rut is, etc. this would tell you whether the deer were there, and just being over pressured, disappearing later in the season. Combine several years of total harvest, Buck/doe harvest ratio, avg success per participant, and when the deer were killed. If you can't paint a pretty accurate picture off that, then you aren't trying. Yes, but the testing sample needs to remain as close as possible for the entire 5 years. In other words as an example, on a five year sample, in year 3 hunting directly over bait becomes legal. This will affect the numbers one way or the other. Laws and rules could remain the same for a 5 year test but there a lot of uncontrollable factors from weather to the economy that can effect harvest numbers. Let me say again, I'm on the fence on the matter and can see valid points from both sides. That's why I said "unless regulations changed". I agree, plenty of variables can affect the outcome, but it would allow biologists to make the most informed decisions possible. Now, I'm not saying that I trust the state all that much, but if they are actually trying to make a positive impact in areas that are hurting, it's a necessary information. If you owned 10k acres of private land, and were trying to produce an optimal experience for pay hunters, you would dang sure have a detailed harvest log. You would also have a detailed sightings log. I believe If there was a mandatory harvest log, and voluntary hunter feedback like the avid turkey hunter survey, it would produce all the information a biologist could hope for on a state level.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 369
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 369 |
This is all I have to say about the game check. I have hunted wma's for about 30 years. Have hunted private land but always make several trips to the wma's for old time sake. When Mr. Kelly was over game and fish u went to a wma and they usually took your license put it in a rolodex and give you a tag. You had to go back to the wma to get your license back. They had gates on all the main roads coming in and out and usually had road blocks set up to catch bringing illegal deer out. Seen a deer of some kind on most trips, killed a good many and also seen some good ones killed. Then all of a sudden in about the last ten or 15 years it all changed. The hunts started being shoot everything u see and kill all the does you can. Havent been checked other than the check in station by a game warden in years, and check in stations only open a few days a year. Ive been at choccolocco when there were 3000 people on a hunt and close to 500 deer killed and everyone u talk to was saying they saw a doe or two. Now you go and 800 if your lucky and very few deer killed. I say all that to say this if this will help them jack legs in Montgomery realize that cant have the general public turned loose and tell them to kill every dang thing they see and have no kind of game enforcement around than I am all for it. But I still think that politics has way more weight on decisions than common sense or having some were in 20 years for my kids to go.
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,612
10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,612 |
Went to the Jasper meeting tonight and thought it went great I feel like if everyone will do their part and report the info the State can finally move forward with some good data .
I feel like the State and our Biologist want what's best for us the hunters of our State so if you see these upcoming meetings please spread the word and attend these meetings so you can hear how it will all work if this indeed does pass in mid July.
Sykes went thru the slide show with info and did a great job explaining things as well as hearing from the hunters in attendance and Matt Brock , Nighthunter , Chris Cook and others were very professional in answering questions as well ....great to have guys like them representing our State , thanks guys for all you do .
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780 |
Went to the Jasper meeting tonight and thought it went great I feel like if everyone will do their part and report the info the State can finally move forward with some good data .
I feel like the State and our Biologist want what's best for us the hunters of our State so if you see these upcoming meetings please spread the word and attend these meetings so you can hear how it will all work if this indeed does pass in mid July.
Sykes went thru the slide show with info and did a great job explaining things as well as hearing from the hunters in attendance and Matt Brock , Nighthunter , Chris Cook and others were very professional in answering questions as well ....great to have guys like them representing our State , thanks guys for all you do . Serious question on the data. Here is what I report (from what I am gathering at this point): 8 pt. killed, XYZ county, 1/1/17. What data can be gathered from this? Once again, not being a smart@$$, just looking for answers, explanations, and expectations.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,361 |
Serious question on the data. Here is what I report (from what I am gathering at this point): 8 pt. killed, XYZ county, 1/1/17.
What data can be gathered from this? Once again, not being a smart@$$, just looking for answers, explanations, and expectations. That seems to be the question nobody can answer. So for, all I can determine is that this data is better than no data at all.
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,612
10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,612 |
We are 1 of only 3 States left that doesn't have a tagging or gamecheck system , this will allow the State to see what's being killed ( buck or doe ) , when its being killed , the deer density according to what's being sent in and you can do all this by the new app being provided on our smart phones .
You will have 48 hours to report it and they will be somewhat easy on hunters till it all gets impleamented ( grace period ) .
You will go in the app buy your license and do everything you need to do on your phone and after you do this the first time you want have to put in all your info again it will give you your on personal I.D. number .
If i heard numbers corectly on 3 percent of the State buys a License that in itself was pretty eye opening and as a result we lose Wardens as a result of not enough funding , this year some counties didnt even have a Warden .
You just need to attend a Gamecheck meeting close to you and spread the word to others that you know as well who are hunters .
We had 1 out of 35 who was disgruntled about what might take place so your not going to please everyone .
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,108
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,108 |
We are 1 of only 3 States left that doesn't have a tagging or gamecheck system , You hear this same kinda logic when folks want to raise property taxes.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130 |
this year some counties didnt even have a Warden This has been a problem for several years, unfortunately, not just last year or recently.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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