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Joined: Sep 2007
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10 point
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10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999 |
The biggest takeaway folks need to have from this topic is coyote are or will be part of most peoples management concerns in AL. If you don't have them you will, they are just that adaptive. Coyote populations seem to be able to be managed fairly effectively by trapping during the right times by a "good" trapper. Coyotes can and do have a big impacts on fawn recruitment in some areas due to various circumstances (population, habitat and so on). Also, there is a lot we do not know about coyotes because of their recent establishment in the southeast but they will continue to be studied. You can be sure that coyotes ARE killing fawns. That may be helping or hurting you management strategy but every decision that is taken out of your hands usually costs you in the long run.
Last edited by NightHunter; 05/08/14 06:34 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,406 Likes: 99 |
My disagreement is mostly that you guys are advocating as if predator control is just another thing that every AL deer hunter should now be doing if they�re to have a well rounded management plan. Its no different than a decade or two ago when folks started preaching about the need to shoot does in order to have a well rounded plan and every AL deer hunter thought that meant them�..even though most of them had no real idea of how to assess their property and determine if they really did need to shoot does. This idea of everyone trapping is not much different. Predator trapping as a necessity is only needed in a small percentage of situations. It would be like if everyone thought we needed to get rid of all the sharks in the ocean in order to be able to fish for amberjack or red snapper.
Look, if you guys want to blast every yote that comes by you or pay someone to trap�..then by all means, have at it. I�m just being realistic about the true impact that�s being made and the true cost I�m paying to implement that change. For most hunters, this issue over the long term with boil down to more trigger finger restraint when it comes to harvesting does than it will to predator trapping. This really is not as big of a deal as most people make it out to be. For many it will be no different than the �doe days� of the past where doe harvesting is no longer and �unlimited� rule like it has been. This will have to happen from an individual landowner/hunting club level too and not just on a state level. Managers and club presidents may have to implement their own doe days. This is what we do at my hunting club. Even though state rules allow us to harvest does all season�..we voluntarily make our own rule to stop on Dec 15.
Heck, if I approach the guys in my hunting club and tell them��Alright guys, we have 3 choices next year�.1) We can either cut our doe harvests back from around 18-20 down to around 8-10�..2) We can spend all summer driving an hour one way back and forth to the club running trap lines�.. 3) or we can pay someone $2,000 to trap for us��I�m betting that 9 out of 10 of them are going to choose option 1 and tell me that they didn�t really want to shoot that many does anyways. Think about it like this, if you are in this situation and you choose option 3�..then you are really just paying so that you can shoot more does. Most timber company leases are suffering as much, if not more, from trigger finger restraint as coyote predation. I find that planted pines make for good habitat for deer in several stages of its life.
Nighthunter��..If you had to just take a guess, what percentage of AL hunting properties do you think currently need trapping efforts in place in order to have good huntable populations of deer?
Last edited by CNC; 05/09/14 04:32 AM.
"For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul?" .....Mark 8:36
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 |
I sorry but i still disagree with you CNC. Your option 3 is just not correct! YOUR saying that the 2000 dollars is payed for trapping and your only getting more does. That is a lie. Thats like saying does only give birth to doe fawns and not buck fawns. At leats 50% of the fawns would be buck fawns correct? BhamFred stated that in his rehab of deer that 2 of 3 were button bucks< from does> so over 50% are buck fawns correct? I understand trigger control= i practice it on does, but if dont see the value of having 50% more bucks i dont know what to say? Think of you option 3, like this= 10 members add 1 more member that is a proffessional trapper that will trap for hunting rights instead of 2000 dollars.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,406 Likes: 99
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,406 Likes: 99 |
Y�all kill me how you always want to try and scare everyone by making it about less bucks. In the scenario you/we are talking about here shooter, we are comparing two ways to compensate for the loss of deer (buck or doe) due to predation�..You can either take out yotes so that fawns survive at a higher rate or you can leave more does in the population so that more total fawns are produced. Either way is increasing the net gain of fawns. Its just the approach you use to get there that�s different. One way is associated with a lot of time, money, and effort required on the part of the landowner/hunter while the other just requires you not shoot as many does. Not shooting as many does is also a lot more feasible and realistic goal for most people on a long term basis. Predator trapping is not something that many people with continue to do for more than just a couple years. For example, people throw the idea of trapping hogs around on here as if its not that big a deal. However, let someone drag 150-250 lb hogs out of knee deep mud and hog chit for a couple summers while they fight the heat, snakes, and bugs�..and they begin to not like the idea of long term hog trapping anymore. Predator tapping will no be much different for most folks.
"For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul?" .....Mark 8:36
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Joined: Jun 2010
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8 point
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8 point
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,236 |
My disagreement is mostly that you guys are advocating as if predator control is just another thing that every AL deer hunter should now be doing if they�re to have a well rounded management plan. Its no different than a decade or two ago when folks started preaching about the need to shoot does in order to have a well rounded plan and every AL deer hunter thought that meant them�..even though most of them had no real idea of how to assess their property and determine if they really did need to shoot does. This idea of everyone trapping is not much different. Predator trapping as a necessity is only needed in a small percentage of situations. It would be like if everyone thought we needed to get rid of all the sharks in the ocean in order to be able to fish for amberjack or red snapper.
Look, if you guys want to blast every yote that comes by you or pay someone to trap�..then by all means, have at it. I�m just being realistic about the true impact that�s being made and the true cost I�m paying to implement that change. For most hunters, this issue over the long term with boil down to more trigger finger restraint when it comes to harvesting does than it will to predator trapping. This really is not as big of a deal as most people make it out to be. For many it will be no different than the �doe days� of the past where doe harvesting is no longer and �unlimited� rule like it has been. This will have to happen from an individual landowner/hunting club level too and not just on a state level. Managers and club presidents may have to implement their own doe days. This is what we do at my hunting club. Even though state rules allow us to harvest does all season�..we voluntarily make our own rule to stop on Dec 15.
Heck, if I approach the guys in my hunting club and tell them��Alright guys, we have 3 choices next year�.1) We can either cut our doe harvests back from around 18-20 down to around 8-10�..2) We can spend all summer driving an hour one way back and forth to the club running trap lines�.. 3) or we can pay someone $2,000 to trap for us��I�m betting that 9 out of 10 of them are going to choose option 1 and tell me that they didn�t really want to shoot that many does anyways. Think about it like this, if you are in this situation and you choose option 3�..then you are really just paying so that you can shoot more does. Most timber company leases are suffering as much, if not more, from trigger finger restraint as coyote predation. I find that planted pines make for good habitat for deer in several stages of its life.
Nighthunter��..If you had to just take a guess, what percentage of AL hunting properties do you think currently need trapping efforts in place in order to have good huntable populations of deer? And I appreciate that in your never-to-be-humble mentality that you truly believe that the coyotes on your lease only kill does and inferior doe fawns, and that your attitude that this is acceptable should apply to all hunters in Alabama. I understand that you feel there's some symbiotic agreement that your yotes will only increase in numbers to match your deer herd and stay there, instead of continuing to grow until that particular food source is decimated, the way they seem to do in most of the state. I think that most of the disagreement you get is from guys like myself who don't trust the coyotes to only take out the inferior fawns or the sick does, instead of the ones who they catch easily because they are protecting their inferior doe fawns and so forth, and we want to be the determining factor of the size of our deer herd. I believe that the coyotes where I hunt kill fawns, both doe & buck, at nearly every opportunity, and I don't want them to kill any. Any at all. I view them as an invasive species, and would gladly eradicate every single one of them, think of it like snake-heads in a lake instead of sharks in the ocean. They just don't belong. I understand that there are pocket areas that have overpopulation of deer and that some of those leases are held by hunters that don't care to shoot does or control their population, I guess I equate that to guys that want to marry hot highly sexed women, but don't care to service their particular needs and are just as happy to leave it to someone else. It just doesn't make sense to me, and in both cases I'm sure there would be plenty of volunteers to help out if you let it be known that there is an availability. There are hundreds of guys on this board that would gladly drive hours and bowhunt does only if you would allow it, and you wouldn't need coyotes at all. I believe that there are plenty of reasons that "natural predation" and "survival of the fittest" theories don't apply to coyotes in Alabama,but you choose to believe otherwise, and it's fairly obvious that neither view is likely to change the others, all condescension and name-calling aside.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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10 point
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10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999 |
Loaded question...
Every landowner/lessee has a different idea about their idea population. This subject is more about hunter satisfaction than herd health when you get down to it. If you are happy seeing a couple of deer once a week then let the coyotes eat. A huntable population is 5 deer per square mile but I wouldn't want to hunt there.
I will say not that high though if you are talking coyote predation only but if you add in additive mortality from hunting then it will get on up there but still stay under 50% by a decent margin. Getting higher though. I only had property in 29 counties in AL though, so I haven't see in all but I have seen a lot...
Also keep in mind that I was on timber co. properties mostly with a few private landowners that we did work for.
Last edited by NightHunter; 05/09/14 05:50 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,406 Likes: 99
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,406 Likes: 99 |
I will say not that high though if you are talking coyote predation only but if you add in additive mortality from hunting then it will get on up there but still stay under 50% by a decent margin.
I think we are finding common ground. So going by what you are saying�.would agree then that for the vast majority of AL hunters�.coyotes alone likely do not represent a �devastating� (extinct, low numbers, unsatisfactory hunting, etc.) threat to our deer herds, but rather it�s the combination of hunters and coyotes (additive mortality) that poses such a high risk or threat level in terms of sustaining future populations???
Last edited by CNC; 05/10/14 02:46 AM.
"For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul?" .....Mark 8:36
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 |
Wow, i missed alot , still going I see. I am glad were all getting closer to getter on this thing. So basicly a vast majority of hunted propertys have coyote problems. Problems because, most hunters want to see more deer correct? I can except that. We want to see more deer. So with hunting WE create a situation that,we need trapping help to keep us being able to shoot more deer?
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,407 Likes: 69 |
I don't really want to see more deer, I just want to see big deer. And I don't want a damn yote making ANY cull decisions for me.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,406 Likes: 99
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,406 Likes: 99 |
I don't really want to see more deer, I just want to see big deer. And I don't want a damn yote making ANY cull decisions for me. Troy, in a situation like you are describing where deer sightings/numbers are satisfactory�..the number of young bucks that you have on your property (1 � year olds) will likely have much more to do with the outcome of that year�s buck dispersal. How desirable is your property (quality of habitat) for a young buck seeking a new home and how many social holes are open in these desirable areas for them to fill. Whether or not the young dispersing bucks that decide to take up residence on your property have the potential for large racks or small racks will likely be completely random/lotto pick. Your �big� deer from that point will just be a matter of which ones and how many you let get old. Again, in a situation like this where deer numbers are satisfactory and the desire to hunt old mature bucks is a major goal�..then coyotes are very much your friend in that they simply help alleviate the need for any intense doe management as a means of controlling total deer populations. This greatly reduces the amount of hunting pressure that has to be placed on a property that the owner/leaser is likely wanting to keep �quiet�.
Last edited by CNC; 05/10/14 05:04 AM.
"For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul?" .....Mark 8:36
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 |
I dont want them making MY decisions either! I to want bigger deer . I shoot for 4 years old plus! But i still like to SEE deer when im hunting deer. I dont care if it is a 2 year old buck or doe. The more bucks we have today, the more bucks we have to hunt in years to come, is the way i see it ! I understand CNC idea of low pressure. And we dont shoot does off greenfeild. But seeing very few deer is a slow day for me. Spending 12 hours in a tree to see no deer isnt what im looking to do! I will keep trapping, pass up small bucks, shooting does ONLY in bow season and not from greenfeilds and try to get the land owners to let us do SOME habitat munipulation/ improvement!
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 161
3 point
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3 point
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 161 |
watching coyotes explode in a red mist with flying body parts from a 25-06 and a hundred grain bullet is good summertime fun anyway.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999 |
Yeah kinda but I am with Troy on the yotes. Don't want them. They are very localized problems but where they are causing issues typically recruitment is really suffering. This situation seems to be expanding from my experience but no, 7 out of 10 folks aren't dealing with coyotes.
This will be a constantly evolving subject like hogs though.
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Posts: 7,978
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,978 |
Turkey season is finally over and I actually took the time to read this thread so now y'all get my .2 cents worth!
CNC if you have a large enough piece of ground that you own and can manage however you see fit then we're all happy for you but the majority of hunters in the south are paying to lease land from timber companies that could give a shucks less about habitat improvement! They manage the land for one thing only! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in the form of pine timber! If you think that's a lie then show me an SMZ with a pine tree standing in it that would make a pole!.....
Trapping is the only option most have to TRY to help increase fawn recruitment on leased property!
Jbuc10 you said that you didn't think that a professional trapper could make a difference! I AM NOT a professional trapper but I CAN show you (not in a study from Washington State) but from mud on MY boots right here in Washington Co. South Alabama where my trapping along with habitat improvements has greatly increased the amount of game on my property!
I'm that Billybob wannabe trapper that shooters kept mentioning but for the past 10 years I've trapped and killed every predator I could! Not just coyotes but fox, bobcats, coons, possums and skunks! Anything that eats the game I'm trying to help is my enemy right down to the snakes that eat turkey, quail and dove eggs!
That's my .2 cents worth and if you don't like it as CNC says you can go pound sand! Lol! I'm going back to the turkey forum!
Adopt the pace of nature, her secret is patience. Emerson
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