Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum AON article got me thinking... Opinion on culls?

You could have stopped right there. If you want to shoot it then shoot it, but don't make some lame excuse for why you shot it. The doe (his mama) accounted for that buck's genetics as well. Good luck identifying which doe should be "culled".

As stated above as well...antler deformity is just as likely from some sort of injury to the deer in his lifetime rather than any genetic make-up.

I guess I see it both ways. If you club has a 4 pt on one side rule and you have a 5.5 year old 225 lb spike on the place. I think you should be able to cull that buck. If you have a mature buck on your place that you have seen for a years that has never passed being a 6 pt, you should shoot him.

I like the hit list approach. Get game camera pics of these bucks and discuss it within the club. Decide which ones need to be shot. Is it really going to make a big difference? Probably not, but it dang sure won't hurt the situation either.

I doubt culling any immature buck will work in a free ranging location in Alabama. Wait until they are at least 4.5.

Two complete different practices though...

Shooting spikes when they are yearlings on intensely managed properties is not the same thing as taking out a 3 year old SOS buck in AL. It's apples to oranges.

Yearling spikes on intensely managed ground are "inferior" to the fork-horned yearlings and when you are producing deer like cattle you can practice these type of programs. They do not want the "inferior" deer taking up valuable resources. It does not have to be in a fence. Texas is a complete different world in deer management.

You are both wrong.

1. sightings of SOOS bucks should be very rare. If SOOS sightings are common you have a genetic problem, not a clumsy deer problem.

2. yes, the SOOS trait, if it is a trait and not an injury, cannot be eliminated - that is common sense. However, it can be *reduced*, and THAT is a legitimate goal.

3. and most important is this fact: if the SOOS is due to genetics, he will always be an undesirable buck (for most people) so best to get rid of him as he will never amount to anything special.

And THIS IS ALSO true if it is pedical damage: the buck will never amount to anyting special so it is best to eliminate and turn into food. Otherwise the deer is just taking food away from other deer.

It's not "SOS" it is SOOS - as in "Spike on One Side".

I am the man on the North American continent who
invented the phrase and it's accompanying acronym - right
here on Aldeer many years ago.

It is interesting that
this phrase has caught on *nationally* as I have read
a Deer and Deer Hunting article earlier this year
that used that phrase.

if it is genetics, it never will turn into such a buck.

if it is pedicle damage, it will never turn into such a buck.

I agree with Timbercruiser

If it is pedicle damage then it could have perfectly fine genes, and could be left to breed and pass those on.

WmHunter

Explain how I am wrong. Where did science define that SOOS bucks are predominately genetically inferior racks instead of malformed antlers due to pedicle damage. I'd like to see that paper. I must have missed that Journal of Wildlife Management.

If you are only looking at it from a stand point of limited resources then you can argue that you are feeding an undesirable buck but you can't definitively say he is genetically inferior. You simply have a buck that was not allowed to express his true potential due to damage but that does not determine his genetic makeup. He may be undesirable to look at but who knows what is under the hood, so to say...

I agreed with you that you cannot **completely** eliminate a bad antler trait. But I disagreed with your post to the extent it implied that you cannot reduce the incidence of a trait, assuming it is a minority trait within a deer herd.

There is virutally no science or papers on the matter. A piss poor attempt by some not very smart grad student at Auburn with preconceieved notions and an agenda tried to claim it was either brain disease or pedicle damage, but even that "paper" (ha) conceded that almost 50% of SOOS could not be explained in terms of pedicle damage or brain fungus.

Have to add this about that "paper" - the author did not even follow my definition of SOOS. By the fellow's own admission he expanded the concept of SOOS to include ALL abnormal antlers on one side.

I agree they are not all pedicle damage but the ones I have come into contact with usually are and that is where I draw my conclusions from. That said, I don't see but 10 or so a year and they usually have some type of brain abscess signs or pedicle damage signs.

I have seen my share of those that don't though.

I am always amazed that topics like this almost always focus on "cull" bucks. Maybe because they are easier to identify in the wild. You will NEVER remove "cull" bucks from the herd and here's why.

Can anyone tell me what a "cull" doe looks like? Genes come from both sides of the gene pool and you will NEVER know which doe carries good genetics vs bad genetics. Those "cull" bucks will spread those genes to their daughters just like they do to their sons. You will never know which does to target to remove from the herd.

at the end of the day, how many properties in Alabama are good enough anyway, to worry about an inferior 6 point gene or too many 8's and not enough 10's, etc.? Let's be honest, most hunters in Al. are luck to see one mature buck a year and most hunters that kill a cull, are killing that "cull" cause they haven't had any or many opportunities at anything else. For the few properties here and there where 130-150" bucks are killed on a somewhat regular basis still can't remove the "inferior" genetics and most of these properties don't "cull" anyway.

i follow this at my place. it works, and im not high fence. the study says I believe that you gotta have high fence to make 'it' work... management is management, particularly paying attention to droughts/dry summers impact on antler development. I am no scientist and would like for BSK or Rod to chime in on this...

Yep
I know a fellow on North Sand Mt. that has 1/2 of a BnC buck. One side is right around 75" the other a big spike, can't remember if it has a brow tine. Both sides match, plug in the spread , he's flirtin' with "the book". He had some super genes for NA. And it's a fine looking mount, that fellow's mighty proud of it.

So all pedicle damage is permanent?

Very well stated.

Culling genetics is Horsechit. Ive seen first hand some terrible racks mature into nice ones when given the opportunity. Some mature faster than others and thus the slow maturing buck is eliminated in the name of culling. More than the buck goes into the genetic equation when talking about fawns.
Culling deer with broken bones or wounds is sometimes neccessary in the name of being humane.

The best buck on your land in terms of genetics could be a cull buck. An Auburn study proves...

http://www.qdma.com/articles/spike-on-one-side-genetics-or-injury

..."Besides the underlying principle that SOOS antlers are caused by physical injuries and not genetics, the take home messages of this research are three-fold.

First, the underlying cause (skeletal versus pedicle/skull injury) of SOOS antlers determines whether or not a buck has a decent chance of developing normal antlers in the future.

Second, yearling SOOS bucks stand a chance of developing normal antlers in the future and should be protected from harvest like normal yearlings.

Lastly, adult bucks will probably continue to carry SOOS antler characteristics throughout their lifetime, making them a candidate for harvest if they meet the normal age-based harvest criteria, like any other buck.

Let�s be clear about one thing: Harvesting SOOS bucks does nothing to improve the genetic quality of a deer population. Hopefully, this research will hammer another nail in the coffin of the mythical �genetic cull buck.�

About the Author: Gabe Karns is a Ph.D. candidate in wildlife sciences at Auburn University. Previously, he earned his master�s degree from North Carolina State University. His thesis and dissertation research have focused primarily on buck movement ecology."

From the article you posted above:



That's quite a different definition of SOOS bucks from the definition that is commonly used on this forum.