|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
96 members (Turkey, BPI, Gizmo76, BrentsFX4, 7PTSPREAD, Lil_Fella, billrv, South Ala Hunter, RareBreed, PineTop, twaldrop4, Ryano, Turkeyneck78, 5Pages, RSmith, CeeHawk37, Hoytdad10, BC, grundan, GrandSlam, capehorn24, J_Martin, jmj120, Brian_C, IMISSALDEER, Slewfoot, Fishduck, CAM, TwoRs, wareagul, fur_n_feathers, Fattyfireplug, canichols424, Squeaky, cullbuck, Shmoe, Ron Brown, GobbleGrunt, catdoctor, 000buck, Rocks, Daveleeal, CCC, mopar, Whitebone, CrappieMan, CNC, Kang, dustymac, Frogeye, CarbonClimber1, bug54, DHW, Irishguy, Heath, bn163, ALMODUX, Dead down wind, abolt300, Chiller, Bmyers142, Holloway, foldemup, Okatuppa, Lvlhdd, Whiskey9, AU coonhunter, Gunner211, Frankie, Cjunkin, Ragu, HURRICANE, tallapoosa, jdhunter2011, El_Matador, sawdust, outdoorguy88, BentBarrel, ts1979flh, TEM, rkt, Cuz-Pat, 14 invisible),
965
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831 |
Matt,
1. Healthy deer produce healthier offspring.
** But does destruction of social groups during population manipulation have a detrimental effect that offsets other benefits?
2. Quality habitat results in better offspring survival.
** Maybe not. If social groups are disrupted, then survival rates my not be increased.
3. Near equal sex ratios and healthy deer from quality habitat have a tighter breeding season.
** Killing only mature bucks before and during the breeding period likely disrupts the buck hierarchy by taking the more dominant bucks out. That leaves bucks that nature eliminated from breeding to re-establish that hierarchy and breed when they may not have bred otherwise. Not necessaarily healthier, IMO.
4. Tighter breeding season reduces stress.
** See 3. Maybe not. With fewer mature bucks left, younger deer are left to duke it out and do the breeding.
5. Reduced stress results in healthier deer.
** But does it really reduce stress if established social groups are disrupted by it?
Is this what you believe to be true? Or just stating this as possibility for discussion? 1. What kind of deer social group would most likely suffer in this scenario? 2. What habitat is better for the "social groups" and higher survival rates? 3. If killing only mature bucks disrupts the hierarchy what needs to be killed to maintain the hierarchy in order for the "social groups" to survive? 4. Since there won't be enough mature bucks to ensure the survival of the species, and the younger bucks will duke it out to the death, are we looking at extinction as we know it? If so, how we do prevent this? 5. How do we bring the stress level down to ensure the survival of certain social groups? 6. Is it possible for you to start your own website so you can enlighten us and the rest of the world on the best deer management practices since apparently know one here knows what the he// they are doing?
Last edited by Tru-Talker; 06/07/13 01:33 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 |
49er, go the QDMA web site, general forum and ask your questions. It's obvious we simpletons can't answer them to your satisfaction. I wasn't talking to you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
10 point
|
|
10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999 |
Matt,
1. Healthy deer produce healthier offspring.
** But does destruction of social groups during population manipulation have a detrimental effect that offsets other benefits?
2. Quality habitat results in better offspring survival.
** Maybe not. If social groups are disrupted, then survival rates my not be increased.
3. Near equal sex ratios and healthy deer from quality habitat have a tighter breeding season.
** Killing only mature bucks before and during the breeding period likely disrupts the buck hierarchy by taking the more dominant bucks out. That leaves bucks that nature eliminated from breeding to re-establish that hierarchy and breed when they may not have bred otherwise. Not necessaarily healthier, IMO.
4. Tighter breeding season reduces stress.
** See 3. Maybe not. With fewer mature bucks left, younger deer are left to duke it out and do the breeding.
5. Reduced stress results in healthier deer.
** But does it really reduce stress if established social groups are disrupted by it?
Do a little research and you may find out that younger age class bucks do more of the breeding than you think, even in the healthier populations. It seems to be more driven off of the searching patterns of the inexperienced males but they come across a lot of does and do get the opportunity to breed. The more specific and direct searching patters of the older age class bucks may bring them across less does but when they find a receptive doe they will most likely remain with her through her cycle and then move along. They may come across less does by they are highly successful in passing along their genes to these particular does.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 |
Tru-Talker, Is this what you believe to be true? Or just stating this as possibility for discussion? Just read what I posted without trying to read something else into it and I think you'll find the answer to your own question. Your questions 1-3 are valid questions that a qdm practitioner should try to find the answers to. Your question 4 makes a ridiculous assumption that I did not make. Your question 5 assumes that stress is the cause of disruption of social groups. I don't buy that assumption. Your question 6 is a personal jab that doesn't address the questions and really doesn't deserve any response.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 |
NightHunter, Do a little research and you may find out that younger age class bucks do more of the breeding than you think, even in the healthier populations.
It seems to be more driven off of the searching patterns of the inexperienced males but they come across a lot of does and do get the opportunity to breed. The more specific and direct searching patters of the older age class bucks may bring them across less does but when they find a receptive doe they will most likely remain with her through her cycle and then move along. They may come across less does by they are highly successful in passing along their genes to these particular does. I've already done the research and find that your observations are accurate according to that research. The only part of your quote that may not be accurate is this: ... you may find out that younger age class bucks do more of the breeding than you think... I don't think my post indicated that I thought the younger bucks didn't participate in breeding. It was more about the presence of mature bucks during breeding and the effects of removing them. Don't you think there are potential problems that can come from targeting only mature bucks immediately before and during breeding? [Add: especially where the buck population is already skewed toward younger bucks??]
Last edited by 49er; 06/07/13 06:47 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,898
10 point
|
|
10 point
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,898 |
Reading this thread reminds me of something my Grandmother use say. You would argue with a cypress fence post.
Grandma said...Always keep a gun close at hand, you just never know when you might run across some varmint that needs killing...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 |
Reading this thread reminds me of something my Grandmother use say. You would argue with a cypress fence post. There are a couple of you who remind me of a cypress fence post, but give me credit, ... I didn't start this discussion and I don't see where it really relates to Serious Deer Hunting. Maybe the question should have been asked in the QDM Section or on the QDMA Forum if no opposing views were welcome? Is a discussion really worth anything if opposing view are not considered?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
10 point
|
|
10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999 |
IMO your argument does not hold much weight. For the most part our native populations are pretty heavily skewed toward younger age class bucks currently. Now you want to shoot them too?  You're saying we should evenly harvest the buck populations...why? To answer your question, no I do not believe by targeting older age class bucks that we are causing a problem. On property I manage and know very well, we have photos of deer I have tracked since they were 2.5 years old and now they will 7.5 years old. They have the innate ability to survive, especially once they get in the older age classes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 |
it's beyond silly to say QDMAs practices won't/can't/don't work....actually it's beyond stupid.... ... and that's not what I said Troy. Is it stupid to evaluate the practices objectively instead of just assuming they work because QMDA says they work?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 |
IMO your argument does not hold much weight. For the most part our native populations are pretty heavily skewed toward younger age class bucks currently. Now you want to shoot them too? You're saying we should evenly harvest the buck populations...why? To answer your question, no I do not believe by targeting older age class bucks that we are causing a problem. On property I manage and know very well, we have photos of deer I have tracked since they were 2.5 years old and now they will 7.5 years old. They have the innate ability to survive, especially once they get in the older age classes. Let's say it's November 26 and the rut peaks around the end of December. You have a choice to shoot a dominant 6.5 year old buck or a younger buck. Assuming qdm principles are correct, is it better for the "health of the deer population" to remove the dominant buck and leave the younger buck?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130
Mildly Quirky
|
|
Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130 |
Yes, because at 6.5 he's on a downhill.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,713
10 point
|
|
10 point
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,713 |
IMO your argument does not hold much weight. For the most part our native populations are pretty heavily skewed toward younger age class bucks currently. Now you want to shoot them too? You're saying we should evenly harvest the buck populations...why? To answer your question, no I do not believe by targeting older age class bucks that we are causing a problem. On property I manage and know very well, we have photos of deer I have tracked since they were 2.5 years old and now they will 7.5 years old. They have the innate ability to survive, especially once they get in the older age classes. Jerremy, (in commenting on your response to 49er's post above) I'm not a biologist and I'm not a erudite on whitetails but I strive to be. Everything I have read and heard (from credible sources) backs what you're saying about young bucks breeding. THEY DO! But the phrase "targeting mature bucks" for harvest incorrectly suggests or is taken that you're going to kill all or a high percentage of mature bucks and that is simply not true! You can target them all you want but you're not going to wipe mature bucks out!! Immature bucks? Targeting immature bucks? It's like targeting 18 yr old boys at a girl's cheerleader camp. You can just about wipe them out. I grew up thinking (because my ignorance told me that they were "smarter" than does) that "bucks" were hard to kill. And, they "were"... on the non-managed land I hunted (because they'd all been shot at 1.5 to 2.5 yr old). Then I hunted managed land and realized just how easy it is to shoot bucks up to about 2 and maybe 3 yrs old. After bucks get past 3 yrs old, they're a different animal. Anyway, when it is suggested by any hunter... no one in particular, that targeting mature bucks may be ecologically negative to the deer herd, I just have to disagree knowing that mature bucks numbers won't be negatively effected by hunting alone. Nonetheless, it's a positive thing to have a sufficient number of 2 and 3 yr old bucks in the herd. And, I enjoy watching them.
Last edited by Bucktrot; 06/07/13 06:02 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Booner
|
|
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 |
... Anyway, when I hear that I'm a bad person b/c I target "mature" bucks, I just have to laugh. It's already been pointed out that you are bad about saying that I said something I didn't say. Show us where I said that and maybe it will help to improve your credibility if you can find it. If not, you've made a false statement. If you're striving to be a good scientist, the truth is important. If you are afraid of the truth, you'll never make it to becoming a true scientist. Learning to listen to your critic's ideas and to attack weaknesses in their opinions instead of attacking them personally would be a step in the right direction.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,713
10 point
|
|
10 point
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,713 |
... Anyway, when I hear that I'm a bad person b/c I target "mature" bucks, I just have to laugh. It's already been pointed out that you are bad about saying that I said something I didn't say. Show us where I said that and maybe it will help to improve your credibility if you can find it. If not, you've made a false statement. If you're striving to be a good scientist, the truth is important. If you are afraid of the truth, you'll never make it to becoming a true scientist. Learning to listen to your critic's ideas and to attack weaknesses in their opinions instead of attacking them personally would be a step in the right direction. Sorry 49er. LOL. I wasn't talking about "YOU" specifically and I yielded to you and changed my wording. However, I have seen on Aldeer where a poster(s) (whom normally side with you and it may have been you but I don't have time to go back and search) challenged the practice of "targeting mature bucks" with the assumption that such would wipe them out. That AIN'T going happen. Oh 49er. I don't question your ethics nor your character. I think you're a good person, Eddie. I "kinda" like you're position on the role of government but IMO, you're too extreme and IMO, government does play a vital role for the betterment of all involved. Game laws... we need'em! It "appears" you're not for them. Do I think it's crazy for it to be illegal to carry a gun "and" a bow when I hunt deer? Yep, I do! What's it matter? All laws are not perfect and they won't satisfy all involved. And, I'm open as to discussion why that law exists. Bottom line, you, IMO, attempt to paint me into a corner of taking away your rights and telling you what you can/can't shoot. And, you question my sincerity when I state this: "Hunt within the boundaries that would be good not only for hunter but for the hunted as well." Shoot a 4 pt if you'd like but don't disrespect the game animal and the science behind the foundation of what's good for the entire herd. Anyway... we'll never agree on the topics we've discussed, Eddie but, I'm ok with that.  OK, I gotta meet a customer....
Last edited by Bucktrot; 06/07/13 06:42 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676
Freak of Nature
|
|
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676 |
Let's say it's November 26 and the rut peaks around the end of December. You have a choice to shoot a dominant 6.5 year old buck or a younger buck. Assuming qdm principles are correct, is it better for the "health of the deer population" to remove the dominant buck and leave the younger buck? 49er, how do you know that 6.5 YO buck is dominant?
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676
Freak of Nature
|
|
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676 |
49er, go the QDMA web site, general forum and ask your questions. It's obvious we simpletons can't answer them to your satisfaction. I wasn't talking to you. Could have fooled me.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180
14 point
|
|
14 point
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180 |
Game laws... we need'em! It "appears" you're not for them. I'll challenge you again because I have never seen him say this and in fact he has said many times the exact opposite.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,870
it froze over
|
|
it froze over
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,870 |
Game laws... we need'em! It "appears" you're not for them. I'll challenge you again because I have never seen him say this and in fact he has said many times the exact opposite. Appears wouldn't mean that 49er said it. It may just seem that way to some. It "appears" that you're an instigator, but you may not be???
This is Aldeer! The place people come to vent their frustrations and completely change their stance a few minutes later... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130
Mildly Quirky
|
|
Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,130 |
49er has not said he doesn't want laws. He has said he wants the ones followed that are in place.
Kinda like what we say about gun control, isn't it? Enforce the existing laws and penalties, and don't add any more regulations, rules and laws about it?
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
10 point
|
|
10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999 |
IMO your argument does not hold much weight. For the most part our native populations are pretty heavily skewed toward younger age class bucks currently. Now you want to shoot them too? You're saying we should evenly harvest the buck populations...why? To answer your question, no I do not believe by targeting older age class bucks that we are causing a problem. On property I manage and know very well, we have photos of deer I have tracked since they were 2.5 years old and now they will 7.5 years old. They have the innate ability to survive, especially once they get in the older age classes. Let's say it's November 26 and the rut peaks around the end of December. You have a choice to shoot a dominant 6.5 year old buck or a younger buck. Assuming qdm principles are correct, is it better for the "health of the deer population" to remove the dominant buck and leave the younger buck? This is only one variable out of many. You can't make an educated decision based off of that little bit of information. Do I believe harvesting the 6.5 year old negatively impacts the herd... No. There is no evidence that it would.
|
|
|
|
|
