Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Groundbreaking New Turkey Research

We could really add to number #2……..Vegetation accounts for a lot of the ground structure in many areas but something else that adds to that structural component of the understory as well are things like all of those rocks in the mountains of Jackson Co……Tree blowdowns would be another type of ground structure that’s very prevalent ……Maybe we should just call it all "understory structure"

Pretty sure the overall answer would be pockets of nesting and brooding cover spread throughout the landscape vs being all concentrated along edges like it is on most properties. Much easier said than done for most people, like me, who are weekend warriors.

Take my place for instance, my only early successional habitat is a 40-acre block of old field sandwiched between fairly open timber. The field is great nesting and brooding cover, but turkeys aren't really using the interior. I do disk some strips in the winter to give turkey and qual some diversity and travel corridors, but I also want to manage for deer, so I need some thick, woody components as well. It's hard to make it ideal for all critters and I do believe I have heard Craig Harper say something along the lines of you have to decide what species you are managing for. That would be deer for the majority of landowners.

To me, the ideal property would be more of a checkerboard of timber and old field. I'm trying to set mine up that way, but I doubt it will get there in my lifetime.

I think the most efficient nesting and brooding is gonna come from large stands that have nearly 100% usable interior…….where the vegetation is thin enough and short enough that hens will freely move through all of it and nest in the thicker clumps of this and that’s scattered amongst it…….. away from the roads and edges that get heavily traveled by predators……. I don’t see how any hen could nest 20-30 ft off a firebreak and not get detected and flushed over 28 days……The smaller the stand and thicker and less usable the interior……the higher the flushing rate should be over time generally speaking……Of course those other variables still factor in to any given years success

Take this with a grain of salt but I believe managing with rotational grazing and fire would manage for optimal conditions for the big three……deer, turkey, quail………Its basically a 2-3 year fire rotation with 2-3 month grazing rotations added in between fires to keep the vegetation beat back and in that ideal structure and growth phase……We are missing a huge link in the chain here in the southeast without having that component involved……The vast majority of the habitat we create is only productive for a short window of time before it grows up too tall and thick and the scales tip heavily into the predators favor…….

Now I aint saying you gotta get cows but that ^^^^ is the concept and blueprint that somehow needs to be replicated if we really want to see the best results……That’s one of our biggest hurdles to get over here in the southeast……We have extremely high rainfall and plant growth rates due to our climate and we have taken away the ecosystem component that’s supposed to moderate that growth and form structure from it.....We're missing the impact of bison and elk herds

How far is a hen going to wade into this stand to nest??......To make this a little more real for those of you keeping count.....the new solar farm is just a couple cow pastures over from that wood line in the back.....

I know that picture is a little bit of an extreme situation with the grass but its also very relevant to what happens in fertile black belt soil……..The problem is that someone can go take a picture 2 months post burn in June and show what looks like ideal conditions……They’ll say “ Yeah its got a lot of grass in it but just look at all the other great plants….yada yada yada….”……And that’s true to an extent…..There are some other good plants growing there that are beneficial for a brief moment in time…….Then another month or two later after the pic or video is taken, that dense native grass is head high and it stays that way for the next 20 months…….That image we are always shown is only a brief snapshot in time and only represents a small fraction of the life of that rotation…..The following spring after the pic or video is taken, hens are likely nesting 20-30 ft off a firebreak because the interior of the stand is too thick and no longer usable space

In my opinion, here’s the fallacy in our thinking with cutting stand size down to 20-40 acres like many recommend these days as optimal……

We have recognized through studies that due the thickness of the vegetation in many areas…..once a stand passes a certain acreage threshold that the interior fails to get utilized……and the bigger the stand gets the more interior space there is that goes unused…..Just to plug some numbers in to show the concept lets say that a hen is only willing to wade 150 ft max into that grass stand in the pic above to nest…….If we make that grass stand 1000 acres……then that means there are 89 acres being utilized around the perimeter or 8.9% of the total stand………

So now here’s how we’ve proposed to solve this issue and where the fallacy comes in……If we cut that stand down to 40 acres and the hen uses the same outer 150 ft…….Now we’re utilizing 17 acres out of 40……which is a 42% utilization rate……If we cut the stand down to 20 acres then we are at nearly 100% utilization and we say that must be far better because we are using more space this way……. when in reality the hens are still nesting within 150 ft of the edge in either scenario and that’s what really matters when it comes to disturbance rates in these systems plagued with coyotes…….The hens are still just as vulnerable to the high rate of predation traffic that occurs on the roads and firebreaks…….even more so now because you’ve created so much more edge to be exploited……meaning that even more hens can be put in a vulnerable position to be flushed ……..

It wasn’t the size of the stand that needed adjusting to fix the utilization issue…..It was the density and height of the vegetation in the interior

The most important bit of information about this whole concept that seems to be getting completely lost on the research that’s going on ……is that if coyotes flushing hens off of the nest and killing them is one of our main issues…….then it’s scent that’s getting them detected……Coyotes don’t hunt at night with their eyes…..they hunt with their nose……and that’s why the 150 ft edge ^^^^^^ matters so much………If that aspect is not researched then we’re really not looking at the whole picture

If y’all want to know the truth about a lot of the land that everyone thinks is so great….. its that’s its WAY off from its true potential because of generalized management practices being followed across a varied landscape…………The property I’m on in the pic above is one of my favorite places to go and the owner has always been super great to track for……BUT…….he’s able to manage the property by quite literally just dropping fire and letting it rip in late winter….…..and as a result you have black belt soil growing a lot of excess grass……This comes from the “influencers” pushing for the use of a particular tool more than a pushing for a particular result……The goal is to maintain an optimal density and height of the understory structure and an optimal species composition……..not to simply rip fire……That gets lost on the public though and the reason why is pretty obvious when you listen to a lot of “the experts”.

With season extending into a lot more hens are getting flushed off the nest. See people sharing pictures all the time of nest full of eggs where they have flushed a sitting hen.

That definitely isnt helping anything that's for sure.......At least when a hunter bumps a hen you have some hope of the hen coming back to it.......Any that dont though is just additive disturbance to go along with the yotes and bobcats

I haven’t seen one come back after flushing.

That’s not good……You know now that you bring it up…..I bet just the shear increase in the number of turkey hunters roaming around the woods during the spring over the last 20 years or so has increased the overall flushing rates across the board…… just adding to whatever the yotes and other critters may be flushing……

I was reading more about it and the literature says that if its early in the incubation period that the hen likely to abandon the nest……Its toward the end when its close to hatching time that she’s more likely take risks in returning……..

I have, more than once. Flushed one off nest while bush hogging a few years ago. Missed the nest fortunately. Mowing close by the nest the next day I flushed her again. Mowed away from nest and parked tractor in shade where I could see the nest. She came back to the nest within 15 minutes. I had left cover around the nest. Checked it a couple of weeks later and there were 13 hatched out eggshells in the nest

I’ve been told it depends on how far along the incubation is.

I know I flushed one that never came back and I had one that was in cover crop while planting beans. I planted around the nest and she hatched those 8 and I saw them is they grew. I went back to the nest site after she left and replanted that area.

But the eggs are delicious. Very rich

I’ve never had one come back I flushed on foot. I’ve had several return if flushed from a tractor. They obviously view predator threats different than equipment.

Sounds like my - hunt early, kill gobblers, and get out the woods to stop busting hens - is going to eventually win out when it comes to season structures. That and better habitat, and we may give them a chance to not go extinct.