It's really simple. Who is Paul talking to? 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here are the 2 verses in Ephesians that were referenced:
1:11 In Him also WE have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
2:10 For WE are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Who is predestined? The saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
Who is his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand? The saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
God did not predestine INDIVIDUALS, but a group of people. Those people are the faithful in Christ Jesus.
Correct... just like a teacher "predestines" people to fail/pass a class by assigning a grading scale, God has assigned the criteria for "passing" to be those who are "in Christ". Do teachers at the start of class assign each student to "pass" or "fail"... no. The "predestination" comes as a result of being in a group. The New Testament very much teaches a doctrine of predestination... but not THE doctrine of predestination that many hold to.
I meant I would need to hear more of exactly what he said before/after that statement, and exactly how he said it, to attempt to infer what he was trying to say. He could have been on the right path and just worded it poorly, or he could have been committing heresy....really know way to understand the point he was attempting to make without hearing the full statement.
But, frankly, I don't have the energy for a theological debate today.
Very easy in that type of setting to say/hear something that was intended one way and have people take it to mean something else. IMO, a funeral is not for the purpose of explaining theology, but to remember the life of a person who's departed.
I meant I would need to hear more of exactly what he said before/after that statement, and exactly how he said it, to attempt to infer what he was trying to say. He could have been on the right path and just worded it poorly, or he could have been committing heresy....really know way to understand the point he was attempting to make without hearing the full statement.
But, frankly, I don't have the energy for a theological debate today.
Very easy in that type of setting to say/hear something that was intended one way and have people take it to mean something else. IMO, a funeral is not for the purpose of explaining theology, but to remember the life of a person who's departed.
It's funny you say that...we were on a trip this weekend with our youth group and somehow got on the discussion of common misconceptions about Christianity, and one of the youth mentioned the [false] idea that we become angels when we get to Heaven and how they were at a funeral and someone mentioned that "well, Billy Bob is an angel in Heaven now and has his wings". I told them that is most definitely not biblical, but standing over the casket at the visitation probably isn't the best time to correct someone's theology. Just offer condolences and move along
Gomer the best I can tell you is the woman died of a heart attack. Suddenly, but peacefully. She was a believer and a servant. The pastor just came right out and said it wasn't Gods will for her to die. That God never intended for any of us to die. And then went into sin being the cause of death. Not saying she was sinning, just in general, you know like the wages of sin are death kind of sin.
It really struck me as odd, I haven't ever heard anyone say that. I really don't know which is the better way of looking at it. That this was just something that happened randomly, or was there some divine purpose. A divine purpose provides a level of comfort that chalking it up to just dumb luck doesn't.
Sometimes I really wonder if pastors don't just say things to see if people will challenge them. It's just not something I have ever heard, which is why I asked.
From what you're saying, it sounds like the one speaking would have been better off saying the second idea (God never intended for any of us to die) prior to saying the first (it wasn't God's will for her to die)... but that's just my opinion. I think we can make a case for that statement as well as the fact that "God's will" isn't always done. 2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that ANY should perish... so I think we can safely say that God NEVER wants anyone to be lost.
It's funny you say that...we were on a trip this weekend with our youth group and somehow got on the discussion of common misconceptions about Christianity, and one of the youth mentioned the [false] idea that we become angels when we get to Heaven and how they were at a funeral and someone mentioned that "well, Billy Bob is an angel in Heaven now and has his wings". I told them that is most definitely not biblical, but standing over the casket at the visitation probably isn't the best time to correct someone's theology. Just offer condolences and move along
You're exactly right... not the time nor the place to discuss it. Sadly, and someone may choose to spinoff from this topic about it, some people say things to grieving folks that are both unbiblical and plain hurtful. One of the worst is "God must have needed him/her more than we do"... as if earth is the "minor league" and God "calls people up to the major league" based on his selfishness. Most of the time, less is more - Job's three friends brought tremendous comfort to him UNTIL they opened up their mouths.
irish ,predestination is Bibical but not in the calvinistic pagan fatalistic sense.
what does the text SAY?
eph 1:4 according as He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. v5 having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.
in other words God predestined all those who put thier trust in Christ would be holy and without blame and He chose to predestin all those who put thier trust in Christ to be His children.
v12 that we should be to the praise of His glory who FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST.
calvinistic predestination is greek platonic fatalism and is there fore false.
election is always to SERVICE not SALVATION.
Thanks for your response. I'm not really sure how Calvin or paganism is relevant here, so let me be clear that you're saying (interpreting the scripture) that...
1. Some people (were not sure of the percentage) are born into this world that are going to Hell and there's not a damned thing they can do about it.
2. The only choice we (Christians) have is not whether we are going to be saved or not, but whether we are going to serve the Lord or not in some capacity.
Did I interpret your interpretation correctly?
That’s not what I understood him to say. I understood him to say God decided beforehand that anyone who chooses to put their faith in Christ would go to heaven. But we get to make the choice. I think what he is saying is receiving the gift of salvation is not an act that we are predestined to, but the result of us receiving the gift is predetermined.
God's will cannot be deterred by our free will, even when we aren't in God's will. It's a really hard concept that I don't think we can comprehend until we get to heaven. Some call it His perfect will and His permissive will.
It's appointed once for man to die. God knows the time and the way. Nothing catches him off guard.
God's will cannot be deterred by our free will, even when we aren't in God's will. It's a really hard concept that I don't think we can comprehend until we get to heaven. Some call it His perfect will and His permissive will.
It's appointed once for man to die. God knows the time and the way. Nothing catches him off guard.
So is God’s will and his knowledge of the future the same thing in your opinion?
God's will cannot be deterred by our free will, even when we aren't in God's will. It's a really hard concept that I don't think we can comprehend until we get to heaven. Some call it His perfect will and His permissive will.
It's appointed once for man to die. God knows the time and the way. Nothing catches him off guard.
So is God’s will and his knowledge of the future the same thing in your opinion?
Related? I believe so. But i don't think they are the same.
God's will cannot be deterred by our free will, even when we aren't in God's will. It's a really hard concept that I don't think we can comprehend until we get to heaven. Some call it His perfect will and His permissive will.
It's appointed once for man to die. God knows the time and the way. Nothing catches him off guard.
So is God’s will and his knowledge of the future the same thing in your opinion?
Related? I believe so. But i don't think they are the same.
Perhaps this is how the multiverse comes into play. There are infinite possibilities out there for every scenario. Everytime free will is exercised, the universe splits and both outcomes are fully explored. Since God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent he already knows all of the possible outcomes, regardless of how we choose.
"When I say ever thing I mean ever thing." - Frankie
Really the only thing you are actually in control of in this world is the power of choice that God gave man when He created him. The ability to choose is the most powerful aspect of your life. I have to believe that God gave that power to humans because if a person is forced to do something then most times love is not in the equation. God gave Adam a choice to love and obey Him or not. I have to believe that God knew Adam was going to choose the way he did. I believe the same applies to us. He knows our choices from beginning to end beforehand but He will not force us to modify those choices.
