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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 25,140 Likes: 146
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 25,140 Likes: 146 |
I was just pointing to what the scripture has to say about the subject. If you don’t believe it then I can’t convince you. Therefore discussing it will be pointless. You know, it's not some weird Irishguy theology. There are actually a good number of mainstream Christian denominations that do not believe in predestination. Denying scripture is bad theology. I have great friends who don’t believe in God’s sovereignty and election. I don’t understand how they can read scripture and conclude that God has no say in the matter. Scripture is absolutely full of Gods sovereignty and election. But, it’s an issue I don’t push back on. The foundation of our salvation is Christ alone. Understanding man’s autonomy and will and Gods is a difficult task that no man can fully comprehend or explain. Some things are just above my paygrade. I think some words get slightly redefined through translation and might alter our understanding. I understand I don't have the mind of God and don't have to know everything as long as the salvation issues are clear. There are plenty of verses that talk about the elect and predestination but there also plenty of verses that talk about Christ dying for ALL and not willing that ANY should perish. I , knowing that God's ways are higher than my ways, just trust that what he says about my beleif is the main factor that determines my eternity. Personally, I can't believe that God creates some people that he predestined for hell. I believe he knows they are going but it's their choice just like it's my choice to heed Christ calling of salvation. If it's not our choice then God created robots and there can be no real love because it's not of our own free will. That's just my own thoughts and I'm not fully convinced I'm right but I also am fully convinced that extreme calvanist are wrong in their assertion that God created people bound for hell to show his wrath and power. I know that both sides of the predestination issue can pull verse after verse to defend their position. For me, it's interesting discussion but I'm not going to argue either side is completely right or wrong.
" I do view Jim Waltz as a really good Presidential candidate"
Bama_Earl
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,196 Likes: 199
Doing the best I can.
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Doing the best I can.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,196 Likes: 199 |
It's really simple.
Who is Paul talking to?
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here are the 2 verses in Ephesians that were referenced:
1:11 In Him also WE have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
2:10 For WE are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Who is predestined?
The saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
Who is his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand?
The saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
God did not predestine INDIVIDUALS, but a group of people. Those people are the faithful in Christ Jesus.
The true mark of a man is not how he conducts himself during times of prosperity, but how he conducts himself during times of adversity.
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TensawRiver |
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,196 Likes: 199
Doing the best I can.
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Doing the best I can.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,196 Likes: 199 |
And before we go throwing out the Jew card, Christ died for them too and if they were faithful under the old law, His blood covered them too.
The true mark of a man is not how he conducts himself during times of prosperity, but how he conducts himself during times of adversity.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,370 Likes: 35
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,370 Likes: 35 |
I'm with Bill and Driveby on this one. The only thing I might add, He said that it was His will that none should perish and that all should come to repentance. Well, in that case some are dying outside of the will of God. A non-believer gets drunk, drives, heads on a light pole and dies. Wasn't His will.
It is appointed to man, once to die. Yeah, we do all have to lay this earthy vessel down. It doesn't say that there was an appointed time. Just that it is appointed that you die and die once.
In that case, then I've already died my one time. Jesus said that those that believe on Him have already died and passed from death to life.
I was born twice and died once.
Romans 8:1-2
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of Sin and Death"
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573
a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
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a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573 |
I was just pointing to what the scripture has to say about the subject. If you don’t believe it then I can’t convince you. Therefore discussing it will be pointless. You know, it's not some weird Irishguy theology. There are actually a good number of mainstream Christian denominations that do not believe in predestination. Denying scripture is bad theology. I have great friends who don’t believe in God’s sovereignty and election. I don’t understand how they can read scripture and conclude that God has no say in the matter. Scripture is absolutely full of Gods sovereignty and election. But, it’s an issue I don’t push back on. The foundation of our salvation is Christ alone. Understanding man’s autonomy and will and Gods is a difficult task that no man can fully comprehend or explain. Some things are just above my paygrade. I think some words get slightly redefined through translation and might alter our understanding. I understand I don't have the mind of God and don't have to know everything as long as the salvation issues are clear. There are plenty of verses that talk about the elect and predestination but there also plenty of verses that talk about Christ dying for ALL and not willing that ANY should perish. I , knowing that God's ways are higher than my ways, just trust that what he says about my beleif is the main factor that determines my eternity. Personally, I can't believe that God creates some people that he predestined for hell. I believe he knows they are going but it's their choice just like it's my choice to heed Christ calling of salvation. If it's not our choice then God created robots and there can be no real love because it's not of our own free will. That's just my own thoughts and I'm not fully convinced I'm right but I also am fully convinced that extreme calvanist are wrong in their assertion that God created people bound for hell to show his wrath and power. I know that both sides of the predestination issue can pull verse after verse to defend their position. For me, it's interesting discussion but I'm not going to argue either side is completely right or wrong. i would say that's a great post and a great answer, but you probably would rather not have anybody thinking that I agree with you.
"When I say ever thing I mean ever thing." - Frankie
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 10,980 Likes: 190
Fancy
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Fancy
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 10,980 Likes: 190 |
I just believe they’re both correct and not contradictions. Scripture supports a sovereign God and man’s choice.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 25,140 Likes: 146
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 25,140 Likes: 146 |
I just believe they’re both correct and not contradictions. Scripture supports a sovereign God and man’s choice. I used a lot more words but I'm of the same belief.
" I do view Jim Waltz as a really good Presidential candidate"
Bama_Earl
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,389 Likes: 150
Glad He Doesn’t Have One
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Glad He Doesn’t Have One
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,389 Likes: 150 |
Does His allowing us to choose delete His sovereignty?
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573
a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
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a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573 |
Does His allowing us to choose delete His sovereignty? I remember our oldest son when he was a little kid. Getting him dressed was always a chore, because he didn't want to wear anything you picked out. It was always a test of wills. What I ended up doing was picking out like 2 or 3 shirts or pants that I didn't mind him wearing to Church or going out to eat or whatever and then let him pick from those 3. That way he got to make a decision and I got him to wear one of the shirts I wanted him to wear. I retained my sovereignty and he got to express his free will... 
"When I say ever thing I mean ever thing." - Frankie
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,391 Likes: 73
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,391 Likes: 73 |
I'd need more context to understand exactly what was meant.... The only context I can add is that God didn't intend for us to ever die. But Adam and Eve fixed that. Hence my asking the question, I have never heard a pastor ever preach that at a funeral. What I have always been told is when its a persons time, its their time. It seems odd to me that God would want us here any longer than necessary, after all, we are easily tempted here, not so with Him.
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Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 890 Likes: 25
6 point
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6 point
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 890 Likes: 25 |
irish ,predestination is Bibical but not in the calvinistic pagan fatalistic sense.
what does the text SAY?
eph 1:4 according as He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame
before Him in love.
v5
having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself
according to the good pleasure of His will.
in other words God predestined all those who put thier trust in Christ
would be holy and without blame and He chose to predestin all those who put thier trust in Christ to be His children.
v12 that we should be to the praise of His glory who FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST.
calvinistic predestination is greek platonic fatalism and is there fore false.
election is always to SERVICE not SALVATION.
Last edited by mathews prostaff; 08/03/26 04:11 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 22,832 Likes: 199
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
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Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 22,832 Likes: 199 |
I'd need more context to understand exactly what was meant.... The only context I can add is that God didn't intend for us to ever die. But Adam and Eve fixed that. Hence my asking the question, I have never heard a pastor ever preach that at a funeral. What I have always been told is when its a persons time, its their time. It seems odd to me that God would want us here any longer than necessary, after all, we are easily tempted here, not so with Him. I meant I would need to hear more of exactly what he said before/after that statement, and exactly how he said it, to attempt to infer what he was trying to say. He could have been on the right path and just worded it poorly, or he could have been committing heresy....really know way to understand the point he was attempting to make without hearing the full statement. But, frankly, I don't have the energy for a theological debate today.
Isaiah 5:20
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,391 Likes: 73
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,391 Likes: 73 |
Gomer the best I can tell you is the woman died of a heart attack. Suddenly, but peacefully. She was a believer and a servant. The pastor just came right out and said it wasn't Gods will for her to die. That God never intended for any of us to die. And then went into sin being the cause of death. Not saying she was sinning, just in general, you know like the wages of sin are death kind of sin.
It really struck me as odd, I haven't ever heard anyone say that. I really don't know which is the better way of looking at it. That this was just something that happened randomly, or was there some divine purpose. A divine purpose provides a level of comfort that chalking it up to just dumb luck doesn't.
Sometimes I really wonder if pastors don't just say things to see if people will challenge them. It's just not something I have ever heard, which is why I asked.
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Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 12,691 Likes: 120 |
We all have choices set before us every day and those choices can lead to a longer healthier life and those choices can lead to death
This one thing is for sure
NOBODY GETS OUT ALIVE unless the Rapture takes place
When I need expert advice I tend to talk to myself
The older I get the better I used to be
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573
a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
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a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573 |
irish ,predestination is Bibical but not in the calvinistic pagan fatalistic sense.
what does the text SAY?
eph 1:4 according as He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame
before Him in love.
v5
having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself
according to the good pleasure of His will.
in other words God predestined all those who put thier trust in Christ
would be holy and without blame and He chose to predestin all those who put thier trust in Christ to be His children.
v12 that we should be to the praise of His glory who FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST.
calvinistic predestination is greek platonic fatalism and is there fore false.
election is always to SERVICE not SALVATION. Thanks for your response. I'm not really sure how Calvin or paganism is relevant here, so let me be clear that you're saying (interpreting the scripture) that... 1. Some people (were not sure of the percentage) are born into this world that are going to Hell and there's not a damned thing they can do about it. 2. The only choice we (Christians) have is not whether we are going to be saved or not, but whether we are going to serve the Lord or not in some capacity. Did I interpret your interpretation correctly?
"When I say ever thing I mean ever thing." - Frankie
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,856 Likes: 119
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,856 Likes: 119 |
I was just pointing to what the scripture has to say about the subject. If you don’t believe it then I can’t convince you. Therefore discussing it will be pointless. You know, it's not some weird Irishguy theology. There are actually a good number of mainstream Christian denominations that do not believe in predestination. Denying scripture is bad theology. I have great friends who don’t believe in God’s sovereignty and election. I don’t understand how they can read scripture and conclude that God has no say in the matter. Scripture is absolutely full of Gods sovereignty and election. But, it’s an issue I don’t push back on. The foundation of our salvation is Christ alone. Understanding man’s autonomy and will and Gods is a difficult task that no man can fully comprehend or explain. Some things are just above my paygrade. I think some words get slightly redefined through translation and might alter our understanding. I understand I don't have the mind of God and don't have to know everything as long as the salvation issues are clear. There are plenty of verses that talk about the elect and predestination but there also plenty of verses that talk about Christ dying for ALL and not willing that ANY should perish. I , knowing that God's ways are higher than my ways, just trust that what he says about my beleif is the main factor that determines my eternity. Personally, I can't believe that God creates some people that he predestined for hell. I believe he knows they are going but it's their choice just like it's my choice to heed Christ calling of salvation. If it's not our choice then God created robots and there can be no real love because it's not of our own free will. That's just my own thoughts and I'm not fully convinced I'm right but I also am fully convinced that extreme calvanist are wrong in their assertion that God created people bound for hell to show his wrath and power. I know that both sides of the predestination issue can pull verse after verse to defend their position. For me, it's interesting discussion but I'm not gogoing to argue either side is completely right or wrong. Good post Bill
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,389 Likes: 150
Glad He Doesn’t Have One
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Glad He Doesn’t Have One
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,389 Likes: 150 |
irish ,predestination is Bibical but not in the calvinistic pagan fatalistic sense.
what does the text SAY?
eph 1:4 according as He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame
before Him in love.
v5
having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself
according to the good pleasure of His will.
in other words God predestined all those who put thier trust in Christ
would be holy and without blame and He chose to predestin all those who put thier trust in Christ to be His children.
v12 that we should be to the praise of His glory who FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST.
calvinistic predestination is greek platonic fatalism and is there fore false.
election is always to SERVICE not SALVATION. Thanks for your response. I'm not really sure how Calvin or paganism is relevant here, so let me be clear that you're saying (interpreting the scripture) that... 1. Some people (were not sure of the percentage) are born into this world that are going to Hell and there's not a damned thing they can do about it. 2. The only choice we (Christians) have is not whether we are going to be saved or not, but whether we are going to serve the Lord or not in some capacity. Did I interpret your interpretation correctly? That’s not what I understood him to say. I understood him to say God decided beforehand that anyone who chooses to put their faith in Christ would go to heaven. But we get to make the choice. I think what he is saying is receiving the gift of salvation is not an act that we are predestined to, but the result of us receiving the gift is predetermined. Is that right Prostaff?
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573
a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
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a.k.a. Dingle Johnson
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28,424 Likes: 573 |
irish ,predestination is Bibical but not in the calvinistic pagan fatalistic sense.
what does the text SAY?
eph 1:4 according as He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame
before Him in love.
v5
having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself
according to the good pleasure of His will.
in other words God predestined all those who put thier trust in Christ
would be holy and without blame and He chose to predestin all those who put thier trust in Christ to be His children.
v12 that we should be to the praise of His glory who FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST.
calvinistic predestination is greek platonic fatalism and is there fore false.
election is always to SERVICE not SALVATION. Thanks for your response. I'm not really sure how Calvin or paganism is relevant here, so let me be clear that you're saying (interpreting the scripture) that... 1. Some people (were not sure of the percentage) are born into this world that are going to Hell and there's not a damned thing they can do about it. 2. The only choice we (Christians) have is not whether we are going to be saved or not, but whether we are going to serve the Lord or not in some capacity. Did I interpret your interpretation correctly? That’s not what I understood him to say. I understood him to say God decided beforehand that anyone who chooses to put their faith in Christ would go to heaven. But we get to make the choice. I think what he is saying is receiving the gift of salvation is not an act that we are predestined to, but the result of us receiving the gift is predetermined. Is that right Prostaff? The way you word it is basically the way I believe it.
"When I say ever thing I mean ever thing." - Frankie
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 94
spike
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spike
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 94 |
Well the Bible clearly shows why we all die.. Romans 5:12
Ecclesiastes 9:11 shows that unforeseen occurrence will follow us all
Also Ecclesiastes 9: five through 10 show the condition of the dead
Also, Psalm chapter 146 verses three and four show what happens to death and the condition
Also regarding the soul, Ezekiel 18 four and 20 show that the soul dies
And also Romans chapter 6 verse seven and many translation show that those who have died have been acquitted of their sins
So the Bible is very clear what happens to death?
Ps 83:18
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,883 Likes: 15
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,883 Likes: 15 |
I'd need more context to understand exactly what was meant.... 100%
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