Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum Managing Regenerative Pines

I have been managing about 60 acres that we clearcut the pine in 2019 exactly like you have described. Cost benefit just did not make sense to spray, burn and replant given the market. Reseeding rate was extremely heavy. I have burned different sections under varying conditions the past several years trying to "thermal thin" what I could. The response and result all depends on burning conditions. I have one 6-7 acre area that has more of a patchwork of open areas and still heavier tree density where the fire didnt get too hot. Another section I smoked 95% of every tree on it. Lots of deer food and visibility there. My next plan to incorporate before the trees get too much bigger, is to have a mulcher go through and cut lanes for me. I'll continue burning every year. I'm hoping to eventually get to a pine savannah look. It's fun to play with!!

This is what I was thinking too……If you want it to grow with any kind of good spacing then some kind of mechanical treatment will likely need to be done…….and in the course of doing this and that the other to try to make everything right……it wont be that hard to eat into that $400 an acre you were trying to save……$400 x 40 = $16,000……..How much abuse are you gonna put your $45,000 tractor through to try and save $16k …….All of this is what I’m thinking about when I say its weighing two gambles……I completely get what T-hatchie is saying too……If you DO spend that $400 upfront, will there be any demand for it or will there even be a mill near you to take it to 30 years from now, etc……..

All that being said…….I’m still having a hard time buying into the natural reseeding route……but I’m listening with an open mind

I’m just throwing out thoughts on the subject for discussion sake but I think another factor to consider too is “time”…….Lets just assume for a minute that there will be a market for your timber in the future……How many years total is it going to take your reseeded trees to reach full maturity versus the improved genetic seedlings that would be planted in better conditions??.....For example, if the reseeding trees take 33 years before they are ready to clearcut and the improved seedlings are ready in 28 then that is five years of time that has to be figured into your accounting equation……Basically you’re growing “x” amount of wood annually which equates to $$$ being produced……Those 5 years cost you the value of the additional wood that could have otherwise been grown during that period……..That also eats into that $400 an acre planting cost we’re trying to save especially if another rotation is coming behind this one in the future

Am I correct?

Your wild growth pines won't be the quality of today's planted pines. But if you are looking at it for hunting, does that matter?

Most of the improvement in seedling genetics that I’m aware of focus on rate of growth not quality of fiber. One of our resident foresters can correct me if I’m wrong.

If T-hatchie is correct and the crystal ball shows no reasonable hope for a market for this guy’s 40 acres of timber in the future……then why are we even messing around with pine trees anyways??……Should we not be thinking about better options for the land to return some monetary value to us??…….I know someone who just sold 44 calves for a little over $100,000 and it didn’t take 30 years to produce them……..I’m not saying that we turn our hunting property into a cattle farm but would buying one single bred cow as a means of starting a small herd to manage the understory not produce a better $$$ return over 30 years than a bunch chitty timber that there’s no market for??……..Not to mention all of the wildlife benefits that would be reaped from such if managed correctly…….I’m just asking and I hear you…..some folks arent gonna want any part of that but some might

The wildlife benefits to natural regeneration and early introduction of mechanical, chemical or thermal treatments can’t really be denied. It’s phenomenal habitat. However, for people who have a pen and calculator mindset it’s not very attractive.

Rate of growth, straightness, disease resistance, non-forking propensity... lots of factors for genetically improved loblolly and slash pine.

I cut 60 acres of mature pine in March on my place. My location dictates that I go back with intensively managed high genetic loblolly reforestation, however, I will be going back with a lighter planting density than the historical average. The helo will be spraying likely at the end of next week site prepping for planting this winter. I have to believe that prattville IP will still be needing pine roundwood in 15 or so years, but if they go the way of Courtland, I'll deal with it then.

A "pen and calculator mindset"??........Are you being serious Clark??

I’m hoping something positive does happen in future timber markets and I still have timberland (presently with a multi year chip-n-saw thinning underway by the Southern Pine Beetle Corp). I did buy cows (deer don’t like ‘em worth a damn) and have dabbled with conservation easements and carbon credits, none of which I would have done if I had confidence in future timber value. All you can do is enjoy what you have and hope you don’t make too many mistakes along the way 🤷🏼‍♂️

Folks with that mindset are putting their money into the stock market not land. Glad to hear that is working for you. Would like to see some pics of the results.

I think he just means money

Congrats on the land purchase! If you strictly want this to be a place for you and your kids to hunt, I would consider putting a firebreak around the entire place. You could also break it up into smaller units and burn them periodically to set back succession. It may not be as pretty, but it will make for a lot better hunting

I agree, firebreaks and divide it up, then burn (for access and hunting).
If timber is your goal, wait till year 3 then you can see what you have. A bush hog head on a bobcat will do wonders. You can make your own rows and leave pines in each row. I don’t like bulldozers in my stands anymore unless I have to, it always washes and you push off topsoil.

Going to look at a 75 HP Takeuchi Monday. Will definitely be adding a brush cutter to it. Can’t wait to get it in the woods.

I hear you……I’m really just asking questions that I think the OP was looking for when starting the thread…….basically asking what are the considerations when deciding what is the best route forward……I totally get that sometimes folks are just letting the rough side drag for the sake of wildlife…..BUT…… I will say that when there’s potentially money on the table worth 5 and 6 figures or more I think anyone would want the person managing that money to put a “pen and calculator” to it at some point……..A pen and calculator mindset he says…….I’m still getting a kick out that one this morning……Hell, its just money.

I think there are a couple of additional factors to consider:
1. Access-does this site offer wet weather access for a logging crew ? Good access and market timing can make a huge difference in ROI.
2. Site Index-do you have the soils to benefit from improved genetic seedlings ? Planting improved Loblolly on a really sandy site better suited to longleaf may not give the best return. Managed Longleaf makes a pretty stand but don’t get in a hurry to see results.

I’m sure some of our resident foresters can add to that list.

We are still doing site prep and planting Loblolly but our last planting were at lower stocking rates. We are fortunate to usually have additional tracts or blocks to bundle together to sweeten the deal for a logger.

It has great access to the property, i just layed a gravel road with 57 rock about 1,000 feet. My goal really isnt to make money from the timber, i truly want just a lil piece of land that i can make memories with my kids and hunt deer and turkeys. So im trying to make the habitat as good as i can for them. Ive got a job with a pension and a drop plan, so im not relying on timber to make money on down the road.

You should be able to do both esp in south AL.

If it’s just for hunting, I’d want it 70/30 (plus/minus) timber/open field ratio. That’ll give you plenty of room for deer plots and enough open for dove field, maybe a few quail, rabbit, and turkey. The game will benefit from having that much openess,as native grasses can grow. You can get on NRSC programs to assist financially, or do it yourself.
If the general area on all sides of you are covered in pine plantations , you’ll have a honey hole if you actually open it up.
Planted pines make me claustrophobic. We started 23 years ago with a piece of property that was 90-10 natural regen timber - open at best. Hunting was ok. Today it’s about 65/35 and the hunting has improved drastically. Probably because I can finally see more than 20 ft in front of my face. 😁