Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum More on old doe behavior…….

I shoot which ever one I can back my truck to.

Smart man 😁😁

So to summarize…….Old does:

1) Moderate the use of resources
2) Maintains improved doe lineages on great habitat
3) Produce higher end bucks
4) Have higher reproductive success


Of course I may just be over thinking it......

5) Don't taste as good as a young one

Yes, you are.

Here's the graph from that research paper on #2.......Just for reference 60 kg is equal to 132 lbs........50 kg is equal to 110 lbs

Here it is again......The red line represents a 140" ......I dont know how everyone else reads it but it would seem that 125-130+ lb does are pretty important to producing good bucks

Yep it’s a little thing known as epigenetics. Does with increased body condition birthing fawns in superb habitat, over generations, increases genetic expression.

So why would someone want to shoot the biggest does then if they are the most likely to produce a 140” or better??

Is there an actual causal link or are they just connecting two random dots and calling it science.

*over generations* is the answer to your question. Nobody is thinking those terms (that length of time). Just hypothetical because I dont know what gains could generally be expected in scenarios like these, but if it takes 10-12 deer generations to gain an average of 2" of antler on the average buck, nobody is going to be concerned about fooling with that aspect of deer mgmt.... esp in clubs where there may be 100% turnover of hunters in 3 deer generations.

So are we discussing biggest does or oldest does? The 2 are not always the same.

Kinda both……I guess I’m merging the two…….Bear with me here and I’ll try to explain it……..

Basically what I’m getting at is that Miss St did their study where they took deer from the poor part of Mississippi and turned them loose on some good habitat in the Delta part of Mississippi and those deer changed in two generations to become the same quality as the Delta deer…….Basically what that is telling us is that its not really genetics….its nutrition……and if you change the nutritional plane then the deer will change with it…..Those does that were topping out at 115 lbs will have granddaughters that start topping out at 125 lbs and great granddaughters that go 135 lbs and so on…..I suppose theoretically that weight keeps climbing until you max out the body frame for our latitude……I’m guessing even down here in Alabama we have the potential for 150 lb does given enough nutrition over generations…..

(Don’t forget our graph ^^^^ showing the heavier the does the more potential for producing good bucks.....Keep that in mind )

So what the Miss St study means is that the concept is also true on the scale of a 1000 acre property and the doe herd that exists there……If you drastically change the amount of nutrition your doe herd receives then you change those doe lineages over the course of several generations to produce better bucks……with the BIG caveat being that those same direct lineages stay right there on that better nutrition…..You cant have them get shot out or replaced by neighboring does or the process starts over

Alright……so now if you still follow…….Imagine we have done just that on our 1000 acres and now we have doe lineages that have moved from the broader area average of 115 lbs to now we have 135 lb does leading our doe groups……That 3rd or 4th generation doe you’re looking at that has taken years to produce is a special doe……It would be counterintuitive of me to go to the woods with the mentality of targeting the biggest doe on the property and that’s exactly what we do most of the time…..We’re in essence shooting ourselves in the foot by not allowing that 1000 acres of prime nutrition to keep the epigenetic change rolling through time…..That 130 lb doe you just shot is the one that needs to keep eating good nutrition her whole life and produce the grandaughter doe that weighs 140……

In this scenario we should be targeting the small does and the ones that are trying to move in from surrounding properties……and the best way to identify those does from our superior lines is that those other does don’t weigh 135 lbs…….We would be better off as a group of hunters if everyone adopted that thinking because like was said before….these higher quality bucks that are being produced from the improved doe lines are most likely dispersing out to other properties in the area…..We really it need to be where LOTS of properties are holding better quality doe lines that disperse out the higher end bucks…..We need to change our group mentality of targeting the biggest does and instead see them as the most valuable ones to leave

I watched it go the other way. We lost about 300 acres of beans,corn and peanuts that were planted in long leaf pines. That was in the 90s and the weights and antler size has never recovered. We kept go records for years.

The simplest way of maintaining this “structure” is to leave these big old does alone and let them defend the best resources for their offspring……What I would imagine happens to some degree seeing how much deer are individuals is that you have a doe trait for who is the biggest bitch in the land that dominates and claims the best resources….You would want that trait passed on and learned and that be how those better doe lines are maintained through time on the same prime resources

I follow what your saying and agree on the nutrition aspect of the area they are in. I've always said that's a huge contributing factor as to why states that have the vast soybean fields grow the biggest bucks.

Let me run this by you......


If the above is true, shouldn't the choice of doe to be shot be the old doe? If the does develop into better quality does over time, shooting the older doe would be shooting the less "evolved" (yes I went there ) doe and leaving the younger, genetically superior doe?

Don't burst his bubble, Driveby.

You cant shoot the baddest doe in the land and make her 3 year old daughter and 2 year old granddaughter defend the prime resources without her…..You have to maintain the social structure of that improved group being the dominant GROUP….. Group being a big key word here……When you cap that old dominant doe in her prime you create a void and open the door up for competition from other doe groups… You basically want the does in that improved line to die of some kind of age related issue and the next baddest daughter doe take over the group and so on and so forth through time……That’s a more structured transition that maintains the status quo for that lineage versus the reshuffling dominance choas we create by constantly shooting the dominant matriarchs

So how do you determine which doe group to harvest from? They all look the same. When shooting the smaller doe, am I shooting an inferior group doe or am I shooting a younger superior group doe?
Also, that 3 year old daughter has reached her peak and that old 5 year old is on the decline. Does reach maturity at 2-1/2 in Alabama with an average life expectancy of 6-1/2.