I have wondered about the "historical" burning season in Alabama, and especially in the great long leaf forest. I don't think there could be much doubt that in my area the Creeks were burning in February to March. I've read many of the books written in their late period by the old traders and government agents, and most of them wrote about this.
What I have no idea about is what was happening 1000 years ago and longer. Did the previous Indians create the forest by constant burning, or did they just maintain what was already here? I don't know, but don't think it really matters; we know how they maintained it.
In order to have natural fire started by lightning strikes then you need lightning……which is very rare in Feb
Aside from when it might have occurred back in the day it doesn’t change what we’re currently doing and when flushes of rodents are “pulsing” and being made available to predators from drip torches…….That concept was the main idea of the podcast episode…….Anyone looking at it objectively would for sure ask the question of how the timing of us flushing rodents with fire impacts things like coyote litter size and predation rates on turkeys, etc…….
I have wondered about the "historical" burning season in Alabama, and especially in the great long leaf forest. I don't think there could be much doubt that in my area the Creeks were burning in February to March. I've read many of the books written in their late period by the old traders and government agents, and most of them wrote about this.
What I have no idea about is what was happening 1000 years ago and longer. Did the previous Indians create the forest by constant burning, or did they just maintain what was already here? I don't know, but don't think it really matters; we know how they maintained it.
In order to have natural fire started by lightning strikes then you need lightning……which is very rare in Feb
Aside from when it might have occurred back in the day it doesn’t change what we’re currently doing and when flushes of rodents are “pulsing” and being made available to predators from drip torches…….That concept was the main idea of the podcast episode…….Anyone looking at it objectively would for sure ask the question of how the timing of us flushing rodents with fire impacts things like coyote litter size and predation rates on turkeys, etc…….
Well, you know beyond a doubt that having turkeys is important to me, but it's still secondary to the timber management. I want my place to look like it did in 1800. If I could live another 100 years I think I could accomplish that. My experience is very limited compared to someone like gobbler, but I have found that a growing season burn can help it transition to that type of forest, but once it looks that way the late winter burn maintains it. That's the way the Creeks maintained it, and from my experience it still works today. It's also my experience that the turkeys do very well in this sort of habitat.
I don't know much about managing anything in the SE corner of the state. Around central AL, if you don't burn your forest is going to be taken over by a sweetgum understory, and that doesn't help anything. A growing season burn gets rid of them faster, but over 20 years of late winter burns on a 3 year cycle has eliminated most of them for me.
All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
It all good though PCP…..I get it…….One of the pitfalls though in having to always be a “team player” is that it forces you to have to turn a blind eye to the reality of blatant issues anytime it may be perceived to negatively one of your buddies…..That's kind of a problem iffin you're wanting to find the actual truth.....I guess folks learn what questions not to ask and how to be ok with intellectual dishonesty…..Heck, might as well just be in government.
The for real, for real problems with having everyone just trying to be a team player comes in when no one realizes that what you’re turning a blind eye to is actually one of the culprits causing our problems…….The mismanagement…..if you want to call it that….. of the understory with fire and the impacts that has on landscape level predator populations and predation rates, etc is why landscape level turkey populations decline in areas like the plantation belt while folks preach about the problem being not enough fire……… ……It’s the same reason why deer populations crash and everyone is asking why without any answers…..Its because you ignored all of those other variables that still matter even if you choose not to look at them……That’s that inherent problem with ignoring them……
My experience is very limited compared to someone like gobbler, but......
Always like these comments…….It’s like a red flag waving just letting you know that the buddy system is at play
Wow man, I thought you wanted people to comment on your threads. I burn a couple days a year and gobbler has documented how much he burns. I appreciate his contributions to this forum because I know they are based on experience, but I think you are way off base with your "buddy system" and "red flag" comments. I have disagreed with him about many things over the years, but we could do it without insulting each other. I have always found his burning advice to be excellent.
I will do my best to stay out of your threads in the future.
All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
My experience is very limited compared to someone like gobbler, but......
Always like these comments…….It’s like a red flag waving just letting you know that the buddy system is at play
Wow man, I thought you wanted people to comment on your threads. I burn a couple days a year and gobbler has documented how much he burns. I appreciate his contributions to this forum because I know they are based on experience, but I think you are way off base with your "buddy system" and "red flag" comments. I have disagreed with him about many things over the years, but we could do it without insulting each other. I have always found his burning advice to be excellent.
I will do my best to stay out of your threads in the future.
I have taken to this method also.
If it’s a CNC post, I generally just keep scrolling he’s not looking for knowledge he’s just looking for affirmation.
Harold can’t espouse his own flawed theories without insulting others who respond.
He definitely can’t accept what anyone else has to say, no matter their client proven results, learned practical knowledge or decades of experience.
CNC has to keep respamming his own posts because nobody responds, likely due to folks are tired of him spamming the turkey forum.
Look at his threads, the majority of the posts in them are responses of himself to himself. Or disagreement and insult to respected contributors to the forum.
It’s just sad to watch someone try to insult knowledgeable folks having a cordial discussion and prove his own ignorance and arrogance again and again.
Originally Posted by Wiley Coyote
Well, the way I see it is there's just too many assholes On a good day there's a bunch of assholes in here. On a bad day there's too many assholes in here.
My experience is very limited compared to someone like gobbler, but......
Always like these comments…….It’s like a red flag waving just letting you know that the buddy system is at play
Yes.... we conspire against you. We talk about it all the time cause you are soooo important
Ignore the point, it's your specialty.
Since you know soooo much more than Gulsby and Lashly, Im still waiting for your podcast to come out but it would simply be you arguing against........you. Kinda like here. Maybe you can get an invite to one of them.....................ooooops probably not Been searching to find all the peer reviewed articles you have written since you know more then the researchers who do it for a living but.........yep, can't find any Tried to find any articles you may have written for popular publications like wildlife trends or any other wildlife management publication.....still no. I must suck at research.
Last edited by gobbler; 06/03/2608:09 PM.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
Tell me you know nothing about trapping hogs and the difference between that and trapping coyotes without actually saying it..... nice job
Hogs can be trapped in large groups, coyotes singley. Hogs have significant impacts beyond eating eggs or poults, coyotes don't modify habitat, pigs do. Coyotes don't eat every acorn or grape or persimmon in the woods, pigs do......I could go on but you will find a way to flip the argument to grass and rats.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
"Stepwise regression showed that total prey abundance and coyote density prior to the breeding season were the most influential factors on mean litter size
Gier ( 1968) noted that 65% of the yearlings conceived during years of rodent abundance , whereas no yearlings bred during years of rodent scarcity."
Coyotes don't eat every acorn or grape or persimmon in the woods, pigs do......
For the record I’m all for folks trapping hogs…..however, hogs don’t eat adult hens and coyotes do and that’s the heart of the problem for many.....especially in areas like the plantation belt……predation on adult hens while they’re on the ground……
The number of rodents being produced and the timing of when that main food source is released to the predators through fire is a massive part of the dynamics of the situation…..Its at the base of the pyramid so to speak…..The timing of it is actually multifaceted in its impact when out of synch…..Its not just feeding yotes in Feb and making more pups….. its also then taking that food source away and not having it available two months later when hens and poults are on the ground……That’s HUGE in its importance but not being addressed because it would ruffle some feathers….. Its still matters though even if feathers don’t get ruffled……and thats the point. If you’re gonna ignore something of that importance to keep from ruffling some donor feathers then the show might as well be a fancy infomercial for team burn council……Just sayin.......
You gotta love the hubris though……Its like here, let me allow my ego to make a dumb move that just confirms what he’s saying for anyone paying attention to the cards…..The hubris comes in with believing that no one else is paying attention ……..What a retarded 56 seconds to post just to slip a jab
Btw…… basically what that sound bite is saying is that when you go burn a stand and there’s nothing left afterwards……then most of the "critters" scatter and retreat to other areas until that stand thickens up again……That’s what all of those numbers really mean……The sound bite is just manipulating it in a way that’s trying to subtly convince the listener that a 2 year burn rotation is going to solve all your predator and pig problems……Anyone want to guess where the highest pig and coyote densities exist around here by FAR??? ….. Shew buddy…….These things never fail to eventually disappoint you…..
I will do my best to stay out of your threads in the future.
The "ignore" button is your friend.
I actually use it not to ignore people but rather just as a means of flagging some folks…..Its a simple reminder that works pretty good.....It be easier to just be able to paint folks a different color but.....you make do with what you got
Yes that’s a great repeat episode……maybe one of the best ones of all of them……..the only thing that needs changed about the message is that April and May doesn’t need to be seen as months when the landowner can burn if he doesn’t get to it earlier or what have you…….That needs to be seen as the time when landowners SHOULD be burning……the primary time……just like they’re doing on Ft Bragg…….the other times are what should be secondary for landowners
With that being said…….the issue is not what you’re telling us…..it’s what you’re NOT telling us…….and as long as that remains true then the listeners are just being given the info that some folks want them to have and not the whole truth on burning……Its not just about the principle though……. which really matters with science …..its that the thing you’re not telling is a HUUUUUGE problem……Its not like we’re just talking about some minor thing getting swept under the rug……Its foundational…….This makes a whole lot more sense now though on why we’re nearly 200 episodes in and still haven’t heard anything about managing for turkeys with grazers despite it likely being the most ideal option of them all…….Its because that’s directly competing with burn dollars of the people paying for the science……
Lets have an episode on grass, rats, cows, and burn timing if I'm wrong......
There’s a moment in that episode where the guy from Ft Bragg mentions that they were achieving 60-70% nest success and Dr. Gulsby comments how great that was and then kinda speculates on what might be possibly causing it……..
It’s likely a couple of things playing into that success….
1) The timing of their burning in April/May keeping the predators occupied with plenty of easy to catch prey during nesting……
2) The ecotone between the uplands and lowlands where the majority of the hens nested…..If I’m not mistaken he said that ecotone was created by allowing the fire to just back into the lowlands and peter out……which likely means there was no fire break for the predators to exploit along that ecotone…..The random nature of a fire petering out into a bottom like that would also help prevent really defined linear lines from forming
3) This one may or may not be happening but burning at such a large scale may be temporarily manipulating landscape level movement and usage patterns of coyotes…..Meaning that you may have the broader population shifting to the current burns to take advantage of the food availability and completely abandoning other areas of the landscape during that time period
Dr Gulsby also brings up the apparent issue of the hens nesting right along the edge of the lowland where coons are more likely to be a factor and I agree…..If I had to guess that probably played a part in that 30-40% loss……A little coon trapping might bump those success rates up another 10-15% or what have you…..I’m also gonna guess that they don’t have baiting occurring on Ft Bragg either so that coon impact probably isnt as bad is it could be in other areas
Just to tag something onto this…….Hawks are also nesting and having chicks that need fed in April/May…..The availability of easy to catch food will be a factor on their predation of poults as well….Same concept
Its easy now for folks to make the leap from that ^^^^ to take it as meaning “rats must be good then”……However, the issue is when you have a massive overabundance of grass and rodents that get flushed at the wrong time……Its when you’re producing 10 times the tonnage of grass per acre that should be produced and that in turn produces 10 times the amount rodents…..…..That impacts things like the average size of coyote territories and therefore the overall density……Instead of mating pairs having 1500 acre territories now they are 500 acres or what have you……
My experience is very limited compared to someone like gobbler, but I have found that a growing season burn can help it transition to that type of forest, but once it looks that way the late winter burn maintains it. That's the way the Creeks maintained it, and from my experience it still works today. It's also my experience that the turkeys do very well in this sort of habitat.
