I noticed they were about to burn on Jacobs Mt…….Do you want to know a hard truth about the reason Jackson Co likely cranked out so many birds this year??......Its because they already have a lot of quality nesting habitat in those mountains…..it just doesn’t look like the nesting habitat that we think nesting habitat should look like……All they really needed was a little relief from avian predators and boom…….You get what have occurring right now…….
Now…..if you go in there and just “burn baby burn” because you think it’s the solution to every scenario without really looking at what you’re producing and you end up just adding a bunch of native grass stands to Jackson Co……then all you are going to really do is create a worse mammalian predator problem for the turkeys to contend with during nesting just like these other areas are having to do right now…….Any burning in Jackson Co probably needs to be done to help promote brooding only and not add tall, dense rodent filled grass stands to the landscape that arent needed…..
A different podcast but a really good episode on predators......
I thought I would mention this one again.....I know I post a lot of videos from time to time but this is one of the best ones on predators I've ever watched.......Well worth watching.......If you listen close you'll hear a lot of very relevant info to our turkey situation......
I hate to have to point it out again but Dr. Lashley and Dr. Gulsby are being bias………..I don’t really think that they’re doing it intentionally but rather more like just natural human tendency to see a piece of information and only see the part that validates your idea or your argument……The bias comes in when you don’t also see and give the same weight toward all the other “butterfly effects” that are occurring along with that one you cherry pick out……
For example, they take this study on blackberries and use it to validate the idea of “habitat” alleviating all our issues…….They point to this study on coyotes eating blackberries and say “See, that validates what we said about habitat and how you should be thinking about your turkey management”……and then they move on without giving any weight toward all of those other effects that are probably far more important to understand…….just like what I mentioned in the thread on coyotes in the general forum about the effects of burning in Feb versus May on rodent availability…..Rodents are one of, if not THE top tier food sources at play and would be one of the most impactful food items to manipulate or “pulse”……….But hey look over here at the blackberries, light a drip torch, and move along……..Lets heavily scrutinize trapping and ignore anything negative with burning……
This is where the habitat manager is going to say……”What do you want us to do…..stop burning in Feb and March?”…….and the response is going to be…….No…..that’s not really feasible across the board but if you ARE going to be burning during that time then someone needs to break out the footholds and catch those resident female yotes that you’re fattening up in Feb/March to have a gazillion pups that then also need to be fed….. I’m just taking a guess here but I would have to imagine that a female raising 4-6 pups is having to feed them something other than blackberries
You may need to go back and listen to the last 25 minutes of that podcast again.....
You and I are getting 2 completely different takeaways from what they said.
I actually already did go back and listen to most of it a second time to make sure I wasn’t rushing to judgement on it ……..What did I miss??......I heard them speak about using fire to create more rats and rabbits but that’s only the simplistic stuff that’s up there at the surface level with this discussion to support "burn baby burn"……Go down the rabbit hole a little deeper and see what impact those rodent populations are actually having that you’ve created when they get flushed and fed to coyotes in Feb and March instead of April/May/June…….That’s a VERY logical question to ask that likely has more importance than the impact of anything talked about in that episode but you’ll likely never hear anything about it because it would rub some folks the wrong way or might validate why we need trapping to help correct the flaw being created from out of synch burn timing etc........I thought this might be a good place just to throw this info out there……In my opinion this isnt just coincidence…….
Most natural fires in the Southeast historically occurred from late spring to early summer (April to June). This peak corresponds with the region's natural dry spells and the start of the summer thunderstorm season, which generates high levels of lightning strikes across highly flammable vegetation like longleaf pine and wiregrass.
While the late spring and early summer act as the primary lightning-ignited fire season, fire activity in the Southeast is highly dependent on seasonal weather patterns. The distinct timing of natural and wildfire occurrences breaks down as follows:
• The Primary Season (April–June): This is historically when the vast majority of natural fires ignited. The seasonal shift transitions from cool, dry spring weather to frequent thunderstorms before the heavy, wet summer monsoon pattern fully sets in.
• The Secondary Season (Autumn): During prolonged droughts or periods following active hurricane seasons, dry and windy conditions in the fall (late September through November) allow fires to ignite and spread rapidly through dead leaves and storm-damaged timber
Let me say it another way…….That whole episode was about food sources “pulsing” and likely by far the greatest pulse of any occurring is when we release tens of thousands of rodents across thousands of acres of land with drip torches………and that concept wasn’t mentioned nor will it likely be…..That's my point about scrutinizing trapping to death but ignoring the glaringly obvious pitfalls of burning at the wrong time or using it to create the wrong structure, etc......That's where the root of many of our problems are actually stemming from
"The trapping literature on coyotes has been discouraging. However, if we've increased habitat quality for both (coyotes/ prey {turkeys and deer}), BUT if you add trapping on top of that, that's when it has the best opportunity to work."
"This is what we would recommend. Habitat first, but not only. Adding trapping to that might realize additional benefits."
I know you have already thought through any rebuttal, but my take is they are speaking to a broad audience. The majority of properties just don’t have good habitat for any ground nesting bird. Obviously they focus on the lowest hole in the bucket. I’ve never heard any of them be anti trapping. I have heard them say let’s get habitat right on a broader scale before we spend effort trapping. If you don’t live on the land or very close to the land, trapping is much harder to do than habitat improvement.
________________________________________ In a world of game takers, be a gamekeeper.
"Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?"
Meanwhile back at the ranch this is actually how those ideas are currently playing out……and its happening because we choose to promote a dumbed down generalized message instead of the deeper truths…..This is what you get when you do that……Deer populations and turkey populations declining in the plantation belt and no one really knowing why despite all of the supposedly great habitat being created with fire…..If we keep on going down the path we’re on we’ll bring all of these great changes to anyone who will drop a match every couple years in Feb and we’ll still be oblivious as to why its not working like we thought ……This is trying to solve a problem through pushing a flawed agenda
I know you have already thought through any rebuttal, but my take is they are speaking to a broad audience. The majority of properties just don’t have good habitat for any ground nesting bird. Obviously they focus on the lowest hole in the bucket. I’ve never heard any of them be anti trapping. I have heard them say let’s get habitat right on a broader scale before we spend effort trapping. If you don’t live on the land or very close to the land, trapping is much harder to do than habitat improvement.
Double Creek…….the problem is that folks are just wanting to use the term habitat and “getting it right” as a generalized term to mean everyone needs to burn……..…..The reality though is that “getting the habitat right” means something much more specific and deviation from that structural blueprint causes big issues not just for the landowners doing it but for the whole landscape……..Those 4-6+ pups being pumped out for every few hundred acres of rat farm habitat being created eventually disperse and go other places…….Not to mention the 40-50% or less hen survival that occurs when you draw in the local hen population to a stand that’s too thick to nest in and you set her right out on a linear edge to be preyed upon. etc. etc…….These things matter and at a certain threshold the bad begins to outweigh the good.
At the end of that podcast Dr Gulsby said something to the effect that creating turkey habitat is also creating coyote habitat………but again that’s the generalized dumbed down version……The real truth is that some of this “habitat” we’re creating is actually habitat that maximizes predator output…..Its about as efficient as you could possibly set it up for predators…..If we were managing for them we would have a Utopia in the plantation belt…….And that’s what y’all are selling to the public……A flawed idea that needs tweaking in order to be implemented without causing more problems than it actually solves
I hate to have to point it out again but Dr. Lashley and Dr. Gulsby are being bias………..I don’t really think that they’re doing it intentionally but rather more like just natural human tendency to see a piece of information and only see the part that validates your idea or your argument……The bias comes in when you don’t also see and give the same weight toward all the other “butterfly effects” that are occurring along with that one you cherry pick out……
Pot meet kettle
Originally Posted by CNC
Most natural fires in the Southeast historically occurred from late spring to early summer (April to June). This peak corresponds with the region's natural dry spells and the start of the summer thunderstorm season, which generates high levels of lightning strikes across highly flammable vegetation like longleaf pine and wiregrass.
While the late spring and early summer act as the primary lightning-ignited fire season, fire activity in the Southeast is highly dependent on seasonal weather patterns. The distinct timing of natural and wildfire occurrences breaks down as follows:
• The Primary Season (April–June): This is historically when the vast majority of natural fires ignited. The seasonal shift transitions from cool, dry spring weather to frequent thunderstorms before the heavy, wet summer monsoon pattern fully sets in.
We burn most every day that you can from mid Jan through late June. The breakdown is as follows from 2020-2026
January-March 244 burn days April - June 141 burn days
It is immeasurably harder to get fires to burn in late May - July, I don't care if it is lightning season or not. The fact that there are 50% less burning days in April, May and June tells me that that is NOT when most acreage burned in our area historically. In addition, wildfire acreage per incident is WAY higher in Jan-Mar when the fuel is dry and winds are higher. This time of year, the fuel is wet, humidity is up and there is little wind. Wildfires in Feb, historically could have started in Dallas county and be burning in Barbour county 2 weeks later. This time of year, wildfires are very limited to small acres. However, I am sure you will have some justification for your inaccurate opinion.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
I hate to have to point it out again but Dr. Lashley and Dr. Gulsby are being bias………..I don’t really think that they’re doing it intentionally but rather more like just natural human tendency to see a piece of information and only see the part that validates your idea or your argument……The bias comes in when you don’t also see and give the same weight toward all the other “butterfly effects” that are occurring along with that one you cherry pick out……
Pot meet kettle
Originally Posted by CNC
Most natural fires in the Southeast historically occurred from late spring to early summer (April to June). This peak corresponds with the region's natural dry spells and the start of the summer thunderstorm season, which generates high levels of lightning strikes across highly flammable vegetation like longleaf pine and wiregrass.
While the late spring and early summer act as the primary lightning-ignited fire season, fire activity in the Southeast is highly dependent on seasonal weather patterns. The distinct timing of natural and wildfire occurrences breaks down as follows:
• The Primary Season (April–June): This is historically when the vast majority of natural fires ignited. The seasonal shift transitions from cool, dry spring weather to frequent thunderstorms before the heavy, wet summer monsoon pattern fully sets in.
We burn most every day that you can from mid Jan through late June. The breakdown is as follows from 2020-2026
January-March 244 burn days April - June 141 burn days
It is immeasurably harder to get fires to burn in late May - July, I don't care if it is lightning season or not. The fact that there are 50% less burning days in April, May and June tells me that that is NOT when most acreage burned in our area historically. In addition, wildfire acreage per incident is WAY higher in Jan-Mar when the fuel is dry and winds are higher. This time of year, the fuel is wet, humidity is up and there is little wind. Wildfires in Feb, historically could have started in Dallas county and be burning in Barbour county 2 weeks later. This time of year, wildfires are very limited to small acres. However, I am sure you will have some justification for your inaccurate opinion.
I have wondered about the "historical" burning season in Alabama, and especially in the great long leaf forest. I don't think there could be much doubt that in my area the Creeks were burning in February to March. I've read many of the books written in their late period by the old traders and government agents, and most of them wrote about this.
What I have no idea about is what was happening 1000 years ago and longer. Did the previous Indians create the forest by constant burning, or did they just maintain what was already here? I don't know, but don't think it really matters; we know how they maintained it.
I often criticize our government, so let me praise it a little. I remember that the Forest Service developed a plan maybe 30 years ago to restore the national forest outside Sylacauga to the way it used to be. I can remember when it looked nothing like it does today. Back then it looked like a lot of private land with a lot of loblolly, thick understory, and hardwood where it didn't belong. I think some of the fires they used in the restoration efforts were later in the year, but once it was restored they went to February and March fires. They still have a ways to go, but much of it now looks like what I thought the great forest used to look. There's turkeys on it, but they have gotta be hard to hunt as they can see you for a half mile in places.
Carry on.
All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
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