Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Wild Turkey Science Podcast??

I’m sure there is some truth to your theory. I’m kind of in agreement with catervj, it’s a combination of all these issues. Bait, habitat, increased predators and also a lot more humans walking around the woods in Spring busting up flocks, flushing from nests, etc. When I was a kid, hardly anyone I knew hunted turkeys. Now, every hunter I know at least casually hunts them. That has to have an effect. And no doubt the land fragmentation that has occurred in the recent years plays a role.

Ok……I’ve listened to it and I get the point Dr Lashley made about the predator potentially eating a sick turkey and removing that predator doesn’t stop the hen from dying and we need to know for sure that the hen didn’t die from something other than the yote etc etc…….However, everything they’ve told me up until now says that the majority of hen mortality occurs during nesting……and I’ve even pointed out the Jones Study that showed 82% survival in hens that incubated a nest…….All I’m saying is, it sounds like we have it pretty narrowed down as to when hens are dying and that its associated with nesting…….

In all fairness I will say that there IS the possibility that something crazy could be happening to the hens while nesting like baiting has caused egg circumference to increase causing them to hang up in the turkey’s butt and they’re actually dying of dysentery and predators are eating them later and we could be blaming the wrong variable…….But if I had to guess its not that and its simply predators killing hens off of the nest

Let me say this though, I totally get nuance and I definitely look at things from lots of angles……The reason I simplify down to setting some footholds is because at the end of the day when all of the talking is done, if anything is going to change then SOMETHING has to be done to be the catalyst of that change……When all is said and done that list of potential options isnt very long……A lot of folks setting footholds in the spring is about the best thing you got…..Creating another burn unit ^^^^^^ that sits hens out on the edge waiting for yotes to come by doesn’t change anything

Let me ask you this then…….I’ve explained why I believe predators are having an impact in some areas but not as much in places like Coosa Co where PCP says that he is not seeing any change…..I’ve explained the structural differences at play at the root of it……If you believe that diseased corn and hunters walking around are having negative impacts, then why arent they negatively effecting Coosa Co??....Hunters there bait and walk around just the same as everywhere else

Something else on the predator trapping that feels like is getting lost is that Dr. Lashley and Dr. Gulsby seem to be really focused on the individual landowner being asked the question of will trapping help me and what to tell them……..The answer is yes…..but it’s a matter of perspective when looking at it from the viewpoint of any given 100 or 500 acre landowner…….and this is what needs to be explained…..

“Turkey populations exist on a large scale……This 100 acre property is part of a 25K acre turkey cooperative around you where many landowners manage the turkey population together……Everyone’s collective efforts within this area are what determines the population levels…..Trapping coyotes, bobcats, foxes and raccoons on your 100 acres during the spring improves the conditions for your property AND the larger cooperative relative to predation pressure and better hen survival…..

While no one can guarantee that you’ll see a significant change in turkey usage on any given property without habitat changes……trapping on your 100 or 500 acre property has a high potential to help improve the population numbers around you, which in turn increases your chances off seeing turkeys over time …..To maximize your efforts though I would recommend to also include some tools like burning and timber stand improvements to encourage the local turkey population to use your property more”

For trapping to be successful it needs to be something that a lot of people buy into so that each 25K acre cooperative has multiple coyote/bobcat trappers operating during the spring…….We have a fragmented landscape now with lots of landowners that impact local turkey populations……Will every acre of land across the state see improvement??……No…….Would it create significant change in a LOT of areas??.......Most certainly yes…….That is virtually the only route to any change once the studies and talking are done and something actually has to get put in motion different from what is being done now…..

What’s funny about the idea of not being nuanced is that I’m actually thinking it through all the way to the end and THAT is where options gets real simple……What else are you gonna put into motion and make happen??....Are you going to change the structural layout of the landscape??......This idea that “habitat management IS predator management” and all we need is more habitat isnt going to cut it when most of whats being added simply attracts hens to an edge that serves them up on a platter ^^^^^^

I get it though…..they wouldn’t be doing good science work if they didn’t fully investigate it all the way through……

If you just listen to the intro to that last podcast they did you will hear the problem with what they are telling the public versus what I wrote above....Its getting framed as the last thing someone should do only after EVERYTHING else has been done and only then

As I have said, good God, I don't know when or how often....., they phrased it right. If predation is not the problem, then killing predators is not the solution. I apparently have spent too much time talking to Gulsby. The podcast would have sounded the same had I been on it. The comment about if you kill all the predators in a hardwood forest will the quail come back was a good analogy. They won't because predation is not the problem. And italicizing your own quote does not make it seem more professional or impactful. The comments about quail plantations that have exceptional overall habitat and virtually 0 predators along with lower populations of turkeys also is enlightening and something I have said. Again, in this case it is habitat.

What about when I put it in a fancy font??

I'm not sure if it has any impact but it's wild to look through google earth image history and see the fragmentation of the woods. Areas that used to be big swaths of uninterrupted woods looks like a checkerboard today with housing development.

I think Goobler is just afraid that if trapping is successful then folks will stop burning......At the end of the day hens that can live to be 8-10 years old are dying at an average age of 3 and "habitat" the way we're implementing it isnt fixing that issue

One of the biggest issues here to me seems to be the perspective folks are taking in viewing the problem……When I look at it I’m zooming out and looking at the land in 25K acre chunks and I’m recognizing that "50% of the hens are seeking out 7% of the habitat" within that chunk of land……I listen to Dr Lashley talk about the hens on Ft Bragg seeking out that “just right” level of understory thickness that exists only in a small percentage of the landscape……..

……and I plug that information into the 25K acre “simulation” and watch the hens around the landscape flock to those just right areas and fill them up during nesting while the rest of the hens get in where they fit in at random spots……Then at look at each one of those nesting spots in that 25K acre area and ask the question “How many of the hens nested in very vulnerable locations??”…….and then I look at the totality of that…..and so and so forth

Meanwhile, it seems like the experts are taking one property within that 25K acre area and trying to explain the situation by what occurs on that one single property…….Not recognizing simple things like the fact that a coyote that gets caught in some hardwoods over here today might have been two miles or ten miles away tomorrow running interior roads and killing hens in a nesting stand had he not been caught

Also, when I hear things like a snip it on large quail plantations that trap EVERYTHING all the time and still see a decline……the first thing that my mind goes to is wanting more information about the scenario…….Me personally I don’t think I would recommend to trap that way from the start…….That type of extreme is likely to just create an issue with rodents and whatever else natures uses to deal with them …….My advice for turkeys for example would be to trap Feb-April…….That accomplishes to goal of taking pressure off of nesting hens without completely removing the predators year round and their pressure on other prey items…

One more thing I should have added about only looking at one property inside of that 25K acre chunk is that its even more “nuanced” when you go from a 25K acre chunk in the blackbelt to a 25K acre chunk in Coosa Co…….The dynamics of the situation change due to soil productivity and its effect on understory structure and where those “just right” plant densities are located that the hens are seeking out relative to their distance from interior road or fire break……The same exact management will produce different results

This is all why I’m saying that you’re never going to be able to adequately explain the situation from the perspective of just looking at this property or that one instead of looking at larger chunks of land as 25K acre management units and how larger scale ideas are the drivers of what we see……Dr Harper sees it and knows we have to think bigger……..

No one I’ve heard as of yet explained why the drop in turkey numbers in the areas of vast undeveloped areas. Yet, I’m seeing turkey numbers in areas that have never had turkeys. Places in Leighton for instance. Large vast ag fields with shrinking hedgerows and small patches of timber. Here in Tuscumbia along hwy 72 and muscle shoals around singing river bridge and along 2nd street. These areas have small patches of woods and always have, yet Im seeing turkeys just about every time I’m thru there.

Logging plays a role no doubt but there are areas where mature hardwoods have been in place for years. Look at Tennessee across the line from the shoals. They had more than we did but they crashed and burned around the same time we did. Numbers are coming back but something happened.
The fields in TN on the way to Counce were full of 100 plus flocks and then gone. They coming back now. Considering a good friend made that trip weekly would also tell me of fields full of bird sand then all of sudden movers fell off in the 2010s-20s

Someone like Johnv is probably running trap lines in the area

Something I think we have underappreciated is the length of the time line and the evolution of coyotes moving in…..There was more to it than they just showed up and that was it…….From the time they originally move in until the time the landscape saturates and finally reaches a new equilibrium probably takes 10-20 years……The “change” for most folks probably lasted from around 1990-2010.....maybe a little earlier for some……..Now their pressure has become more of a constant

If you really think about it concerning the timeline……With coyotes traveling the distances that we’ve recorded them traveling…..even the guy who first got coyotes in the 70’s or 80’s wouldn’t have reached their new equilibrium until everything else saturated out……That area that first saw yotes in the 70’s didn’t finish seeing the full impact until everything else saturated out and the rest of the landscape started sending transients back to those original areas at a fully stocked rate……That is when we reached true yote saturation for everyone…..The full transition took several decades to complete the change and everyone realize the full impact

Yea.... That is what keeps me up at night trapping IS successful.... where it is applicable. I see it every day. Great habitat + predator control = good turkey populations. Simple equation. Predator control in the average habitat in the State (crappy habitat) yields crappy to 0 results. I know burning in crappy habitat makes it better habitat for turkeys. I know trapping in crappy habitat makes no difference.

I can guarantee on the places we work with that have good turkeys and good habitat, turkeys don't nest in 7% of the habitat. Good habitat management makes good nesting habitat compose 20-30% of the area..... mainly through burning and thinning right.

You should run a consulting business telling these guys how to trap, sounds like you would make millions with your sage advice.....somehow only trapping part of the year (Feb-Ap) will help more hens survive.... or something like that....

I’ve been seeing yotes in the shoals area cities longer than any turkey. Heck I can hear yotes howling at least once a week around my house and I live close to downtown. Used to have foxes traveling thru constantly. So much so some got named. Gotta an opossum hanging out in the front yard at night.