Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Wild Turkey Science Podcast??

What’s missing is all of the dead turkeys that should be a result of such……Its very likely that every dang turkey on the landscape is feeding on corn during deer season……Feeders and bait piles are everywhere……If aflatoxins are highly fatal then we should be seeing massive die offs from it…….not just a little……..

Using your premise then coyotes and bobcats are a nonissue

Bait site usually are associated with other pathogens

No…..my premise would be that coyotes came in gradually and moved the needle in the 5-10% range over time and the additional predation pressure on the landscape is why we have seen a gradual decline that is fairly moderate in scope……A disease outbreak caused by the sudden addition of corn feeders and corn piles would move the needle a chit ton…..not just a little……If aflatoxins in corn piles are a problem then they should be a big problem and most of the flock gone…… not a gradual decline…….more like a bottleneck

CNC, I’m trying to understand. Is it your position that aflatoxins are not dangerous/deadly to avians?

Aflatoxins likely compromise the turkey’s immune system and vitality for reproduction, both of which would be additive to a number of things affecting turkey populations. I wouldn’t expect to find random dead turkeys.

Man I hear you…… I’m probably wrong but it just seems like if a disease of this magnitude were running rampant through the population then it should be pretty obvious to see happening……We should have a whole statewide flock with heavy symptoms of it occurring……Errrrrbody has feeders and corn piles now that are running for months on end……You just have go around from neighbor to neighbor to neighbor to really appreciate the amount that’s on the landscape during deer season…….If diseased corn is causing issues then it should be disease impacts of epidemic proportions to match the epidemic scale to which we are placing the feeders and piles……

Have we seen significant changes in Alabama just in the last 6-7 years??......Because baiting on the scale its being done now is a pretty recent thing......Are there any vital rates we can point to and attribute it to poorer individual health??......Less hens nesting??.....Less eggs?.....Lower body weights??....etc..

You’re clinging to it has to be an outbreak. It’s more than likely not, more like one here and one there. It’s not like avian flu. Heck even blackhead isn’t that widespread but site specific usually. Or least that’s how it’s played out around here.

All or none right?

Here's a snip it from a Miss St study........All I'm saying is that if its a problem then it should be a big problem.....not just a little bit here and there.....I could be wrong though

"A recent study by the MSU (Mississippi State University) Deer Lab monitored corn piles placed on the ground during the summer and fall, the very times when young turkeys are out foraging to put on weight for the upcoming winter. All the piles tested negative for aflatoxin the first three days on the ground. But by the fifth day, nearly half the piles tested positive at an average concentration of 400 ppb. By days eight, nine, and 10, all of the piles tested positive with rates as high as 2,000 ppb, 10 times the rate that can harm poults."

How much corn do you have to dump out for it to last 10 days?
Asking for a friend.

Yet that doesn’t worry you just a smidge. No one I know is claiming it to be an absolute travesty. Just another thing that when accumulated with other issues amounts to something concerning. No one saying it’s the biggest hole in the bucket. Just another leak that needs tending to once the biggest hole are plugged first.

If you can’t tell, the all or none mindset perturbs me greatly!!!!!

Aflotoxin is depended on warm wet humid conditions

A few years ago we were sent notice that Florence bins were checking for alfotoxins present in field corn and they’d already declined several loads. Conditions were right for it to be in the fields being combined. It’s also present in combined fields when favorable conditions exist. Bait piles CONCENTRATE wild game so it’s much more of an issue.

So by that rationale then if you’re saying that only a few turkeys here and there are being negatively affected from diseased corn piles then it would stand to reason that the rest of the birds consuming good corn could be potentially benefiting from it, correct??.....I would think that eating corn all winter would have to help with maintaining body weight……especially in bad acorn years……Would you agree?

I don't know what is causing any turkey decline because I still haven't seen it. Our turkey population has been stable for the past 36 years. We had a downturn in the late 80s, but that was entirely due to habitat and seemed normal. Once the habitat improved the turkeys came back and have been there ever since. The habitat is quickly declining due to timber cuts so I expect it to drop some in the immediate future, but that will be because they won't have a good place to live.

Everyone knows I don't like baiting, but I wouldn't think it would wipe out flocks. If 99% of the corn is good and only 1% is bad, it seems like that would result in isolated deaths, with the becoming more common around places that feed bad corn. That number could be significant in some places. I think it would be unusual to find turkeys that died; something will eat them almost immediately as everything in the woods wants a turkey dinner.

I hunt in 3 different counties and all 3 have a lot of turkeys right now.

IMO Pine trees are what’s causing the problem. I have watched the turkey population decline for years and it is all about the habitat and the amount of food that is available. Too many big trees gone to the sawmill.

If there is actually no turkey decline state wide then what’s the agenda behind pushing this lie ?

I believe Gobbler when he said that the decline is real…..it just isnt effecting everyone in the same manner because the landscape structure is different from place to place…..Coosa Co for example that PCP mentioned hasnt declined has a good structural setup compared to a lot of other areas…… Large expanses of habitat with poor soil that is likely allowing for good interior use of most stands…Hens likely arent all having to nest right on the edge of a road or firebreak where they're easy targets for yotes and bobcats

Hardly any oaks left in the tiny SMZs on a lot of the pine plantations down here. Large clear cuts sprayed with poison and replanted thick w/ no burning.

Something else that may be true for an area like Coosa Co due to the poor soils and less productive understory……is potentially a lower predator density

Back at ya

So one doesn’t count a turkey that dies from alfotoxins or pathogens form a bait pile

However every single in is to be counted that is killed by a predator and or other things we deem terrible. Baiting is legit so it’s a misnomer. We all have coyotes so that’s it.

In my book a dead turkey is a dead turkey and as one wishing to promote a growing population one would think one would eliminate as many possibilities. Of baiting is cool now so it gets a pass. It’s not just possible pathogens but also training predators where to setup shop. Kinda like the neighbors cats setup in my bird feeders. Those cats figured to out real quick like.

Someone made a comment the other day that when they first noticed a decline. It kinda fell inline with legalized feeding/baiting.

I didn’t listen yet, but the podcast they dropped today is s titled “Are predators really the problem?”

Thanks! I’m about to listen to it now……Before I do though just let me point out again my premise……Its not JUST coyotes and predators……It’s the structural design and layout that we humans have created on the landscape that is giving predators like the coyote a tactical advantage…….Coyotes and bobcats make a living running road and edge for miles and we have set the nesting hens right out there on the edge for them to exploit……Ideas that work in areas of Texas and Oklahoma don’t work the same here because our understory growth is so much denser, taller, and faster growing…….We are supposed to have grazers that thin out this thick vegetative growth which allows interior use of the stands by animals like turkeys……We don’t have those though…….and so we basically have a structural flaw that’s giving the predators a big advantage……It isnt just simple predator-prey relations

I’ve posted this pic before but this is blackbelt soil…….You can see the issue that arises from really productive soil and a lot of rain……Its gets thick and unusable in the interior……Any hen that nests here is likely right on the edge of the stand where she’s highly vulnerable to the high density of predators that this type understory is supporting……Its structural…..its 2x4’s….2x8’s….foundation blocks…….and the spacing of it all……….Predators, especially coyotes and bobcats, are exploiting the structural framework that we’ve created on the landscape…….