Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum The Rut

I was thinking and we probably need to add this factor into the scenario too……especially considering the year we’re having…….

How much healthier would the bucks be if a large portion of the does got bred early in the season during Nov when there was still plenty of food in the woods for them recover on before the second cycle in Dec or Jan…… instead of it all occurring late in the season during the leanest time period for food??.....Consider too that most of the breeding on that first Nov cycle would likely be done by any older bucks in the population.....Also consider that the second Dec or Jan cycle has also had the buck/hot doe ratio cut down as well due to a portion of the doe herd already being bred back in Nov.......

I read that 579 deer were brought from outside Ala. Some of them 100 years ago. The rest were stocked from within Ala. Most from Clarke county. How strong could the gene pool be after that many years?

Your rut is very SIMPLE:

From the standpoint of the doe herd and doe estrous dates its as strong as the number of does left from each lineage……Bankhead for example is simply an area where Nov does from Michigan were turned loose and allowed to grow to a size of several thousand does in that herd…..and that’s what you have today…….They are descendants of the same Nov does that were turned loose 100 years ago with the same Nov estrous dates……That Nov doe lineage either lives or dies out over time

Florida is the exact same concept……Its all hinging on the doe herds and which does live and reproduce female offspring and which does die and don’t……That big blue dot in the center of the state is where an outside lineage was brought in and introduced once upon a time and now you have a buffer zone around that doe population where they blend in and peter out with the other doe lineages

Can we just kill em’ all and start over?

I hear you…..but no I don’t think that’s an option at this point……We could however take the knowledge we have now and improve on the stuff we did back in the day not knowing any better…….Even if its simply working with what we have now already on the landscape…….Now I highly doubt we ever would get this organized to do it but you could most definitely manipulate what’s occurring on the landscape now through harvest patterns……and we are doing so without even knowing it…..Its just being done very randomly with no rhyme or reason to which does get shot……

For example, not saying we want to do this but we could probably get rid of the Bankhead doe herd over time with the right situation occurring and may actually be doing so in reality…..All you would need to do is heavily shoot does within Bankhead and stop shooting them around the perimeter…..With reproduction rates likely being low within Bankhead due to habitat…..replacement of those Nov does you shot would start coming from immigrant Jan does and every year you repeated that cycle the percentage of Nov does in the herd would likely become less and less until it fell below a critical threshold and petered out…….Will this happen??.....Completely depends on how the land and doe herds get managed over time

I do still have some questions though that would be interesting to know in order to fully understand what’s occurring…..Nature has to have a built in mechanism for allowing the rut to slide forward or backward over the course of time in order to adapt…..I’m wondering

1) How much variance is there in each individual does estrous timing from year to year??.....Does each doe come in within a day or two of the same date she did the year before

2) How much variance is there between a mother’s estrous date and her female offspring……If she’s a Jan 23rd doe is her offspring a Jan 23rd doe as well….how much variance is occurring

We already have a bell curve occurring in a natural herd of about 15-20 days……How is that curve being formed if all the does are being shot at equal proportions??.....Meaning you should have just as many Jan 18th does as you have Jan 28th does and it be a flat line across the graph if nothing is specifically honing in the survivability of the does and offspring on the front and back end of the curve

Which brings us to coyotes and their impact on fawning......... ......Further and further down we go.......

Have you ever been to Bankhead? Habitat is way better than most surrounding private land from what I’ve seen. The forest service burns 10-15,000 acres annually and they harvest timber pretty regularly. Top that off with their pine beetle problem and they have a lot of sunlight hitting the forest floor.

I hear you……I’m really just trying to point out the concepts at play and the potential that exists…..The reality is that there are only “X” amount of Michigan lineage does that exist in there…..Its a finite number…..The way things are now may not be the way it stays forever…..It has the potential to change……Opening up a free for all doe harvest inside of Bankhead for example could create major change if surrounding areas weren’t shooting many does……The number of Nov does being taken out of that finite number ^^^^ matters if other lineages start pushing in from around the perimeter from any given point……

Consider this too and correct me if I’m wrong……Isnt there already a secondary Jan rut occurring within Bankhead from Jan does that have already started infiltrating??

Lets go ahead and bring those coyotes into the Bankhead scenario……When is peak fawn drop for those Nov does, maybe early June ish time frame??.....What if we go into Bankhead and trap coyotes during the month of May and then just let it go??.....Wouldnt that give our Nov doe fawns an advantage over the Jan doe fawns born two month later??.......Again, just throwing out concepts and the potential to create change

Gentleman, I talked with last week has two separate 500acre+ fenced properties right beside one another. One contains all "native" Alabama deer and the other had some "northern" deer brought in 10+ years ago to mix with the "native" herd. His annual natural buck mortality is double inside the mixed property vs. the Alabama only property. He said those poor bucks never stop for 3 months, even with a tight buck:doe ratio.

Couldnt you consider this ^^^^ a form of reductio ad absurdum??....I mean as Sheldon explains the definition anyways.....

Why you dropping cognitive dissonance theory on folks?

Its mind blowing...... ......I kid, I kid......