Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Sea of Grass

I know these guys, talk to them and have been in this field as long as Craig. His specialty is research and mine management. The two work hand in hand. We all KNOW that some places can become grass dominated. However grass dominated does not mean that HUNDREDS of beneficial plants don't exist in this habitat type as well. I have been preaching quail woods management style since the 80's when it wasn't popular. Then came the "NWSG" planting push from the NRCS like it was something new. NWSG plants have their own set of problems and these plantings are what Craig was referring to. A couple of species of NWSG with no other forbs that chokes out a field like fescue would. Plus, switchgrass and big bluestem become way too tall and are often NOT native to the site. I, along with other colleagues have been called (not affectionately) by pinhead deer professors "one of those early successional guys". The issue isn't that we realize that a grass dominated system (at least in the woods) can't be a problem. The issue is 1) what to do about it and 2) it is so much better than any other system of habitat that dominates the landscape. I literally would take it over pretty much EVERY other habitat type in the southeast. It is a FAR CRY from the 90% of the habitat in Alabama of shady, overstocked and midstory crowded woodlands. Its better than agriculture and way better than cattle pasture. Its better than solid hardwood stands (yea, heresy!). Instead of bitching about what a terrible system the quail plantations have created, you should applaud the fact that they are creating the best habitat in the state for wildlife. Can it be better? Yep. Is it already better than 90% of the habitat in the State? Also Yep.

Keep in mind that Craig also works in a hardwood dominated system. His discussion of 30% sunlight in a woodland is nothing like the 60-80% sunlight pine woodlands we manage. He is smart, very knowledgeable and practical but still suffers from the "professor syndrome". His description of managing a field with spot spraying and burning with variable intensities in a field is great for a 500 ac property with 50 acres of fields (maybe). Not practical for large scale management.

Great points and I agree that 60-80% open canopy is light years better than the majority of the state. I’d also argue that micro management even on a 50 acre old field is a daunting task for people that don’t live on the property and have other obligations. It only gets worse on a larger scale.

I have 40 acres or so of old field that I’m trying to manage, but it’s tough when I also have to deal with plots, maintaining roads, planting trees, hanging stands, dealing with privet, sweet gum, chinaberry, mimosa in the woods. I also have to work and I’d like to go fishing a few times this summer! 😜

It’s pretty easy to understand why most places are just a pine thicket or open hardwood stand.

I was watching a video yesterday of a guy giving a lecture on managing hardwoods for turkeys and he made mention several times in there about how the biologists and the professionals 40-50 years ago used to think we should do it like this or like that but how we’ve come a long ways in our thinking since then…..I think he said that they thought back then you needed 5000 acres of hardwoods to manage turkeys or some such as that but now we know we can manage piney woods for them, etc…..I bet they probably told the guy who first brought that idea up to stop bitching.

I wonder if years from now we’ll look back at the way we currently manage in the same manner??...... I bet we will….Seems like folks get old and so set in their ways that they rely on the next generation to come along and do a little “bitching” in order to modify the process……folks that are young enough and still open minded enough to able to change……There was a time when I wanted to start no-till food plotting because I saw all the flaws with how we were doing things there too but I didn’t have the means or enough food plot acreage to justify a drill…….What did I do?......I figured out a way…….Just sayin……..

Valid point there CNC.

I think the more money put into these research studies the more we will understand and get a grasp on what current habitat practices will be. It’s been said here and on all these podcasts, habitat as a whole is changing on the landscape at a statewide and even regional level. So I’m sure research and habitat management will change with it.

You know lot of this is just about pride right??.....Being too sensitive to take constructive criticism even if the other person is spot on in their assessment…..Like I said before, the reality is that much of our plantation management isnt nearly as productive as we think it is……The “quality” is mostly a result of a bunch of individuals owning 3-5K acres each next to each other…..I aint trying to be ugly but if your posting pictures of a stand full of yellow plants touting its productivity and not seeing the issues then there you go……You’re saying that I should quit bitching and applaud it??.... It aint no different than someone posting a picture of plowed up, eroded sand full of a bunch of nitrogen deficient wheat and you saying it’s the best we can do and I should be content with it and just fall in line

These systems are all kinds of out of whack from having massive carbon to nitrogen imbalances to having super high predator loads to having deer herds massively out of balance with the food availability and being mediocre as a result…..Its why the majority of what’s produced is just a bunch of dinks and “Midway 8’s”……I think I remember some guy named Gobbler years ago saying he would much rather hunt on land in Chilton Co than a bunch over populated Bullock Co quail plantations full of average deer……I laughed but you know what, he was right. It takes 100’s of deer and thousands of acres to produce a couple of good ones in that area…..Why??.....mostly because of poor soil management and heavily imbalanced stand composition….. Things that could be fixed if we were willing to figure out a way to correct it.

Yea, thats it. Ive never said that soil doesn't matter, productivity doesn't matter and would LOVE to see a project using grazing in a quail property and see what benefits it might have. Equating a woodland full of both native grass and abundant legumes and forbs is exactly the same as a plowed up, eroded stand full of a bunch of nitrogen deficient wheat. Got me. Im highly interested in any research that will make this system better.


I would suggest you do a post search on that one. Ive never hunted Chilton county and do recall, many times, saying I would rather hunt a quail plantation in Union Springs over any other habitat type in the State. I think you got your wires crossed. These places carry more deer per acre in a healthy condition than any other habitat type in the State. My best deer I have killed have come off of quail plantation land. Probably 90% of the deer Ive killed have come off of quail managed land. Show me a better habitat type.

Quail are the "canary in the coal mine" - the ONE game species that if we manage for it SUCCESSFULLY, we will have exceptional habitat for the other game species. I will say, a 5,000 acre quail managed place that has minimal drainages and hardwood and 90% open pineywoods is NOT optimal for turkeys. But a place that has good, intact hardwood drainages and 50-70% quail woods is excellent for turkeys as well. But the deer will do better than average for the State. If there are NO quail, I would argue that it is not great deer or turkey habitat either and can certainly be made better. Ill ask this again "Show or tell me of a place that has a huntable wild bobwhite population in the southeast that does not burn and isn't a sea of grass in their pineywoods then tell me how Im wrong". You can't. I recognize that pineywoods systems could be made better and grass coverage can be more than I want in burned pineywoods. You refuse to acknowledge the benefits of the system - hence your bias and pride and inability to take constructive criticism of your assessment.

Instead of bitching about how detrimental burned pineywoods are, post up your successful management projects - the places you have made so much better. Maybe have a field day on one of the properties you have implemented your strategies. I have. Both posted pics and have had many field days showing our management style. Easy to bitch about it when you don't have any successes yourself.

Great post! Thanks for continuing to share your real-world knowledge with us.

CNC where are the studies showing that frequently burnt pine stands create a super high predator load? I’ve only seen one study talked about on it and it showed the exact opposite.

I’m not going to keep posting up the same stuff over and over if you don’t pay attention the first time around…….You’ll have to go back and look yourself but I posted up a study about the amount of grass impacting rodent density and predator use……I think I actually referenced several examples along with videos in making my point…….Btw…..grass density is a little different than calling it burn frequency.

I may go back and see if I can find it……It was a long time ago when I first started tracking and was in a little bit of awe at the deer numbers I was seeing at the time…..The discussion was about quality and you said something to the effect that you would rather hunt on a well-managed property in Chilton (or maybe it was Autauga) that had a deer herd that was in balance with the habitat than an over populated Bullock Co qual plantation…..I remember specifically posting the response “Ok” followed by the rolling laughing emoji……

Either way though….. something that I can tell you now from a lot of first hand knowledge is that the best deer in our area don’t come from the plantation belt…..……I track WAY more big deer in other areas……I’m not going to call them out but if someone asked me to tell them the top 5 areas in southeast Alabama to kill a good one those highly touted areas around Hurtsboro and Union Springs would not be on the list…….That would be the #1 area for most likely to kill an average 8 pt…….hence the term just another “Midway 8”……..Sure there are a few good ones killed simply because of the number that’s being produced has its anomalies……but for the most part it’s a lot of very average deer.

All you need is lots an lots of pines

I’ll go back a look. Was it on this thread? Or was it another one?

I thought your reason for this thread was that you believe frequent dormant season burns were creating seas of grass that was creating a super high predator load.

Might have been true. There are 2 properties I hunt in Autauga county. The one I was probably talking about is now out of balance with the habitat and has declined - still a great place, just too many deer for the habitat. It is, however, a managed quail place and, in your opinion, a sea of grass. Regardless of the county, I would still "rather hunt on a well-managed property in (whatever) county that had a deer herd that was in balance with the habitat than an over populated (whatever) quall plantation". Simply I would rather hunt a well balanced and healthy deer herd than an overpopulated one. Duh...


Even though it may be the bast habitat in the State does not mean it cannot be out of balance. Like a bass pond, most folks don't take enough mouths off leading to low body weights and condition. Even though these places can carry more deer per acre than any other habitat in the State does not mean they should. There is still a limit and most that I see are carrying WAY too many deer - like a deer per 4, 5, or 6 acres when they should be carrying one per 10 -15 acres. The result is the same - low condition. Where is the most dangerous place to drive for deer collisions? I would argue 82 between Eufaula and Union Springs.

However, address this instead of ignoring it.
Quail are the "canary in the coal mine" - the ONE game species that if we manage for it SUCCESSFULLY, we will have exceptional habitat for the other game species. I will say, a 5,000 acre quail managed place that has minimal drainages and hardwood and 90% open pineywoods is NOT optimal for turkeys. But a place that has good, intact hardwood drainages and 50-70% quail woods is excellent for turkeys as well. But the deer will do better than average for the State. If there are NO quail, I would argue that it is not great deer or turkey habitat either and can certainly be made better. Ill ask this again "Show or tell me of a place that has a huntable wild bobwhite population in the southeast that does not burn and isn't a sea of grass in their pineywoods then tell me how Im wrong". You can't. I recognize that pineywoods systems could be made better and grass coverage can be more than I want in burned pineywoods. You refuse to acknowledge the benefits of the system - hence your bias and pride and inability to take constructive criticism of your assessment.

Instead of bitching about how detrimental burned pineywoods are, post up your successful management projects - the places you have made so much better. Maybe have a field day on one of the properties you have implemented your strategies. I have. Both posted pics and have had many field days showing our management style. Easy to bitch about it when you don't have any successes yourself.

In all seriousness I’m not sure what it is you’re wanting me to address……I don’t know all of the places in the southeast that have quail or don’t have quail……I can show you a video of a ranch in Texas that manages without fire but this has never been about advocating for folks to stop burning……I think we’ve addressed that several times along the way…….It started out as a discussion about turkeys and got turned into one about quail for some reason……

You: Hundreds of posts about how quail plantation management is ruining the wildlife of the State because of a "sea of grass"
Me: Quail plantation management creates the best wildlife habitat the State has to offer
You: I don't know how this got to be a discussion about quail

Gobbler is very knowledgeable and keeps presenting actual factual application of in his management practices. CNC you just like to pick nits which also has its place. Very interesting topic and been following

I’m chiming in cause gobbler is making a point I noticed many years ago hunting a property in MS SW of Oxford. A friend was in a deer club that was owned by a wealthy family out NY. Nash Buckingham hunted and wrote about his palace. Nailed to trees were signs thruout the woods about the dogs he hunted over.

That being said, the land was managed strictly for quail, to the point of the family came in to hunt the deer club shut down. The land butted up to a national forest on one side that was heavily pressured

I saw more deer and turkey on that place than anywhere in my life. They killed 200 plus deer off that place every year. They also killed a few BC deer and tons of 130s and up and it wasn’t inside the levy. The place was burned incrementally every year. Mostly pine/grasslands rolling hills and hardwood drains with a few hardwood savanna ridge tops. I’ll say when gobbler post pics of places he manages it takes me back to that place in MS. Rob was in that club during the mid 90s and was told it had always looked like that from what the older hunters said

Heard a biologist mention hundreds of times.

If you manage for something 5 inches tall, all the others benefit too!!!!

I remember QDMA having an article that went further and mentioned snakes as a great indicator of habitat quality. Snakes are there because of the rodents. Rodents indicate certain plants a present.

Picking nits? I guess it just depends on the things you perceive to be important or not……

lol case in point

Same. Thanks for sharing and showing what’s possible. I’d love for every bit of our acreage (or at least most of it 😁) to look like the pics you’ve shared