Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Sea of Grass

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tBurYTURJm8

This is a video of what the "sea of grass" looks like on a historic quail plantation In early June. Covered in forbs, weeds, wildflowers, saplings, small shrubs, in addition to grass and..... especially.... bugs. This is a place that is carrying over a quail per acre as can be noted in the video. There were at least 6 quail whistling around me. It only looks like a sea of grass in the fall when all forbs are dormant and the grass is showing.

Some pics closer up





Forbs that came to mind in pics
at least 3 lespedezas (legumes)
at least 3 desmodiums (legumes)
Ipomea or morning glory vine
Milk pea vines (legumes)
cherokee rose
virginia creeper
Native vetch (legume)
Butterfly pea (legume)
ragweed
Partridge pea (legume)
Sensitive briar (legume)
blackberry
smilax
horseweed
ironweed
fireweed
verbena
coreopsis
couple eupatoriums

The legumes and ragweed are all high protein deer browse. The habitat structure is excellent brood habitat for quail and turkey poults. Spent an hour in mid day and saw about 20 deer, 4 turkeys and heard 20+ bobwhites. Not really a biological desert some would want you to believe. Thats just off the top of my head, in a 10' area. Imagine if I had walked another 20'!

Well that is definitely not a sea of grass. A ton of bare soil there. I would say that’s not terrible brood habitat at all. Maybe a little short but not bad. That’s my no college education assessment lol.

Those are awesome pictures … ….Now go take some showing how the other places actually look instead of the best spots you could hunt up to show… …Grass clump density doesn’t magically change in the fall… ….Good try though…….

Right here in this thread..........

Just showing reality. I literally randomly stopped in a recent burn area and took pictures 20 yds from the road. Go take your own pics. This IS a grass dominated system... in the spring.....after a burn....it has LOTS of forbs and weeds....deal with it.

Harold this is further proof that no matter what anyone says or shows you to be true, once you get it in your mind that one of your ideas is true, it can’t be changed.

Heres a couple more forb pics in the "sea of grass" habitat. This a restoration project we have been working on for a while in Dallas co. This used to be an overstocked pine stand with an advanced midstory of crap. Thinning and burning along with some mid story control and herbicides have changed it to a nice woodland. Last deer survey showed a deer per 7 ares in a healthy condition, more turkeys than I know of about anywhere and quail scattered throughout the property. These are some pics of a few forbs I found. I am NOT as good at id'ing forbs as I one was!

This is Florida beggarweed

This is browsed Florida beggarweed - an excellent deer browse

Partridge pea with a narrowleafed desmodium (beggarweed) and a centrosema, also a legume among others

I think this is snoitbean (rhynchosia) but definantley a highly selected native legume for browse. Free after freeing it up from shade - grows well in the sea of grass

Spurge or stingling nettle - also a highly selected deer browse - Cnidoscolus

one of the milk peas

Clitoria marianna - aka pussy pea

I have no idea - legume vine - but I found the white flower intriguing

Scutellaria or skull cap. Cool plant that provides browse and good seeds for critters

Im very poor on my daisies

Also poor on my Rudbeckia but I believe black eyed susan - great deer browse and seeds
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/DwTMBYpX/IMG-6990.jpg[/img]
Hypericum or St Johns wart
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/VkgD4sbx/IMG-6991.jpg[/img]
also skullcap
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/fk4xWpSj/IMG-6992.jpg[/img]
One of the native vetches or tephrosia
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/9fGXsScH/IMG-6993.jpg[/img]
A good example, in amongst the grasses, of all the forbs including solidago and eupatorium
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/mZ0L2BhW/IMG-6994.jpg[/img]
Literally the other side of the road showing partridge pea and dog fennel. This WILL look like a solid grass stand after frost kills back the forbs
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/KYqFXyCV/IMG-6995.jpg[/img]
Talk about a native grassland, this is a restored prairie that was solid cedar a couple decades ago. Cedar were removed and fire re-introduced. This is coneflower and cardinalflower amongst native Indiangrass, big bluestem, little bluestem and bushybeard bluestem
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/y87zkdHt/IMG-6996.jpg[/img]

The conversation was about places that have been repeatedly burning during Feb/March for years or decades……..You’re getting further and further off on a tangent from anything that was said by showing places with completely different management histories……Nobody is claiming that it cant be managed correctly….I’m gonna try and condense this as much as possible and recap the ideas to get us back on track

In order to successfully produce these game species we’re managing for we only need “X” amount of grass and its not a whole lot compared to the total amount of vegetation……Ideal understory habitat would be forb dominated with grass only making up a small portion compared to the total……maybe 25 ish percent…….Every percentage point we go over that goal range doesn’t serve any other purpose than creating extra rodent food and cover……. which produces excess predator numbers……..

Many of these places that repeatedly burn in Feb/March are WAY over balanced toward grass to the point they’re probably 70-30…..80-20……or maybe even 90-10….and therefore producing WAY more predators than they have to be……This impacts the whole map and not just these stands…..big picture ideas here……The good brooding and the bad are ALL receiving higher predation pressure than they have to be on a landscape level

Not only are some of these places producing a way higher density of grass than what is needed……NONE of it is being grazed the way the system is really supposed to function...... so you’re already behind the 8-ball to begin with on grass height and seed production ……Add the out of balance density to that and we’re talking about WAY, WAY more rodent habitat being produced than what should be…..It becomes a bastardized version of the naturally balanced system we claim to be mimicking…….This is causing major predator issues that could be reduced if the grass management practices on these places were changed and brought into check.....This goes for any place whose management is creating imbalanced grass stands

Also poor on my Rudbeckia but I believe black eyed susan - great deer browse and seeds

Hypericum or St Johns wart

also skullcap

One of the native vetches or tephrosia

A good example, in amongst the grasses, of all the forbs including solidago and eupatorium

Literally the other side of the road showing partridge pea and dog fennel. This WILL look like a solid grass stand after frost kills back the forbs

Talk about a native grassland, this is a restored prairie that was solid cedar a couple decades ago. Cedar were removed and fire re-introduced. This is coneflower and cardinalflower amongst native Indiangrass, big bluestem, little bluestem and bushybeard bluestem

Well the first pics in this thread are from a place that has been burning after quail season for maybe a century - March and April mostly like all the other quail plantations, so there is that
The other place I posted pics on is at least a decade and a half in to the "open canopy pine" management and has been burned on a 2 year rotation in Mar - June for at least that amount of time.


Again, I would disagree. While I would like more forbs in my understories, I don't want a forb dominated system. The grass is #1 selected for nesting for both quail and turkeys. Just about every nest of either of these will have bluestems as a component of the nest site where they have it available. If it isn't available, quail basically wont have nesting cover.

In addition, have you ever tried to burn a forb system? Not sure if you have ever burned any of these systems or ever even carry (or carried) a driptorch, but just try to burn a forb field - even in Feb when everything burns - and see how it works. We burn..... a lot... The grasses and pine straw ARE the fuel that carries a fire. No matter when we burn, the forb fields we set up are "fire refuges" and don't burn. Doesn't matter if we burn in Feb or July.


Again, not sure I agree. I haven't seen any research that indicates higher predation pressure on grass dominated vs forb dominated systems. I have seen data that indicates higher rodent populations lead to higher nest and brood success in quail. You have this theory that more grass = more predators but do you have any data to back it up?

BTW, Feb burns on quail places is really not a thing. They rarely burn during quail hunting season and it, historically, goes out at the end of Feb.


I have had no luck getting any of the landowners I work with to to a study looking at rotational grazing in quail management systems. I think it would be awesome and would yield some positive results at low AU densities. Gulsby would love to do the research if someone would fund it and a landowner would do it. Since you know every one of these large plantation owners and " There’s not a whole lot of that map that I haven’t set foot on……I know what’s there and what’s not", maybe you can convince one of them to try it. Ill help raise the funding.

I knew I should have added that line about enough grass for carrying fire........See that's what I get for trying to be short winded.......

So whether its Feb or March…….we’re talking about the same repeated management practices that cause the grass density to increase over time until it reaches a point of saturation……That is the outcome we are getting ……That repeated quail plantation timing/frequency/intenisty is probably just right to be wrong when it comes to creating this effect that’s giving the grass the advantage……

On the rodent front……..One of the problems with “studies” is that the person reading them doesn’t always think the situation completely through and think deeper into why they got the outcome they did or what it really means…….I could go down here into the plantation belt right now and preform a study where I showed that in the years where rodent populations were higher that nesting/brooding success increased………That simple statement doesn’t however encompass the bigger system processes that are taking place and its far from a definitive “conclusion” to draw off of concerning best management practices……..

You’re also still ignoring the landscape level impacts and THAT is the main idea behind it all……One of the big questions that Dr. Collier presented and probably why folks tried to silence him is because he was asking the question……”Why do we continue to go in the hole on a landscape level even in areas where individual properties are being improved?”………Its likely because many of these properties are producing a heavy imbalance of grass and creating more predators than they are turkeys when it comes to the bigger picture…….
I know you see this too and it’s the very reason you originally posted that you agreed and have been pointing it out for decades……You understand that’s its severely out of balance……You just don’t want to accept that it could be causing more problems than what its helping…….That’s a tough pill to swallow for the guys that are doing it……I get it……Most folks have been well intentioned in doing so and its hard on several levels to admit that it might have been wrong.

I’m gonna let you have it now…….post away and paint the picture you want seen...

Ok
Quite literally the grassiest area I could find on a place that has been managed like this for maybe a hundred years. On the map. Sea of grass
This is 2 year rough. Burned last year so you can see the grass from last year. Still LOTS of forbs although they are suppressed because they were not burned this year. They will be prevalent next year

Same spot - wand lespedeza (virginica I think)

legumes in unburned


Deer bed.... imagine that in a biological desert!

Browsed golderrod (solidago) among the grass

Rattlesnake master Eryngium yuccifolium


Literally the other side of the road where it was burned this spring

Ground cover there

Got it. You can disagree with their conclusions because they "didn't think the situation completely through". Im sure if they did (and they were smart enough) they would agree with you.



Not sure there is a conspiracy to silence collier. I may disagree but am happy he is speaking his mind. Can you show the time mark on the statement you are quoting. I would like to listen specifically.


While I would love to see some grazing in this system (because I think it is natural) and do think some of these places can become grass heavy, I still would take it over pretty much ANY other habitat management we now know. I don't see it severly out of balance. I see it as closer to the habitat that Bartram described in the early 1700's than any other we have. I think some of the grass heavy areas could become better brood and, even, nesting cover for deer and turkeys. But the variety and quality of plants available in these systems has no rival in Alabama's woods IMO.

Ill let you have it to slam quail plantation habitat and management and post your bias.

Looks good and the bare ground how much does that matter in poult production. I’d assume high in the list especially in their early days.

Any beauty berries. Get them started birds/turkeys love them.

Individual plant health is suffering …….Look at the first pic as an example…..A lot of yellowy/purple plant colors …….Things should be a lush green….…….Likely have nutrient imbalances going on……Could be basically N deficient from the grass over load bogging the system down……..C:N imbalance…….The more recent burn looks a little better……Probably still benefiting from the nutrient release of the fire

It probably goes without saying but those yellowy colored broadleafs are virtually useless food sources…..I mean they may start hitting some when they get really hungry but if you’ll look there was a reason they chose the goldenrod……There’s a few plants that will hang in there to the end even in the worst conditions……

More specifically about the 2 year ruff……I bet last year’s dead vegetation is trying to decompose as soil temps are warming and its robbing all the available N from the system……I bet the health of the grasses may perk up some later in the summer when/if decomposition peters out…..I believe they are C4…..Again, all the stress you see in the pics being another symptom of an imbalanced system……You need more legumes and a lot less grass….The legumes that are present appear stressed as well……...

It would be interesting to see a time lapse with some more pics from the same spot as summer progresses……I suspect the few healthy broadleafs will slowly disappear and the grasses will take over more and more….……Overall the majority of the two year rough appears to be very poor forage quality…….If we graphed out the availability of quality forage in this specific system above it would probably be fair for a month or two immediately following the burn and then swiftly decline for the next 22 months afterwards……

This is how things just continue to get done the same way they’ve always been done despite glaringly obvious issues…..Our eyes get trained to see things a certain way and issues don’t even register to us even when they are right there staring us in the face……Its how folks can look at the same pic and see two totally different things……You just gotta recalibrate your eyes

Yes, I should learn from the master. The truth teller.

You say this


I go take a bunch of pics in the grassiest areas I could find in fresh burn and 2 yr rough and you go from "there are no forbs and legumes in the sea of grass" to ".... well... they are very unhealthy and don't provide any nutrition.".... All while totally ignoring the questions and points I noted. Got ya


Can you show the time mark on the statement you are quoting. I would like to listen specifically.
You have this theory that more grass = more predators but do you have any data to back it up?
Not sure if you have ever burned any of these systems or ever even carry (or carried) a driptorch?