Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Sea of Grass

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tBurYTURJm8

This is a video of what the "sea of grass" looks like on a historic quail plantation In early June. Covered in forbs, weeds, wildflowers, saplings, small shrubs, in addition to grass and..... especially.... bugs. This is a place that is carrying over a quail per acre as can be noted in the video. There were at least 6 quail whistling around me. It only looks like a sea of grass in the fall when all forbs are dormant and the grass is showing.

Some pics closer up





Forbs that came to mind in pics
at least 3 lespedezas (legumes)
at least 3 desmodiums (legumes)
Ipomea or morning glory vine
Milk pea vines (legumes)
cherokee rose
virginia creeper
Native vetch (legume)
Butterfly pea (legume)
ragweed
Partridge pea (legume)
Sensitive briar (legume)
blackberry
smilax
horseweed
ironweed
fireweed
verbena
coreopsis
couple eupatoriums

The legumes and ragweed are all high protein deer browse. The habitat structure is excellent brood habitat for quail and turkey poults. Spent an hour in mid day and saw about 20 deer, 4 turkeys and heard 20+ bobwhites. Not really a biological desert some would want you to believe. Thats just off the top of my head, in a 10' area. Imagine if I had walked another 20'!

Well that is definitely not a sea of grass. A ton of bare soil there. I would say that’s not terrible brood habitat at all. Maybe a little short but not bad. That’s my no college education assessment lol.

Those are awesome pictures … ….Now go take some showing how the other places actually look instead of the best spots you could hunt up to show… …Grass clump density doesn’t magically change in the fall… ….Good try though…….

Right here in this thread..........

Just showing reality. I literally randomly stopped in a recent burn area and took pictures 20 yds from the road. Go take your own pics. This IS a grass dominated system... in the spring.....after a burn....it has LOTS of forbs and weeds....deal with it.

Harold this is further proof that no matter what anyone says or shows you to be true, once you get it in your mind that one of your ideas is true, it can’t be changed.

Heres a couple more forb pics in the "sea of grass" habitat. This a restoration project we have been working on for a while in Dallas co. This used to be an overstocked pine stand with an advanced midstory of crap. Thinning and burning along with some mid story control and herbicides have changed it to a nice woodland. Last deer survey showed a deer per 7 ares in a healthy condition, more turkeys than I know of about anywhere and quail scattered throughout the property. These are some pics of a few forbs I found. I am NOT as good at id'ing forbs as I one was!

This is Florida beggarweed

This is browsed Florida beggarweed - an excellent deer browse

Partridge pea with a narrowleafed desmodium (beggarweed) and a centrosema, also a legume among others

I think this is snoitbean (rhynchosia) but definantley a highly selected native legume for browse. Free after freeing it up from shade - grows well in the sea of grass

Spurge or stingling nettle - also a highly selected deer browse - Cnidoscolus

one of the milk peas

Clitoria marianna - aka pussy pea

I have no idea - legume vine - but I found the white flower intriguing

Scutellaria or skull cap. Cool plant that provides browse and good seeds for critters

Im very poor on my daisies

Also poor on my Rudbeckia but I believe black eyed susan - great deer browse and seeds
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/DwTMBYpX/IMG-6990.jpg[/img]
Hypericum or St Johns wart
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/VkgD4sbx/IMG-6991.jpg[/img]
also skullcap
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/fk4xWpSj/IMG-6992.jpg[/img]
One of the native vetches or tephrosia
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/9fGXsScH/IMG-6993.jpg[/img]
A good example, in amongst the grasses, of all the forbs including solidago and eupatorium
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/mZ0L2BhW/IMG-6994.jpg[/img]
Literally the other side of the road showing partridge pea and dog fennel. This WILL look like a solid grass stand after frost kills back the forbs
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/KYqFXyCV/IMG-6995.jpg[/img]
Talk about a native grassland, this is a restored prairie that was solid cedar a couple decades ago. Cedar were removed and fire re-introduced. This is coneflower and cardinalflower amongst native Indiangrass, big bluestem, little bluestem and bushybeard bluestem
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/y87zkdHt/IMG-6996.jpg[/img]

The conversation was about places that have been repeatedly burning during Feb/March for years or decades……..You’re getting further and further off on a tangent from anything that was said by showing places with completely different management histories……Nobody is claiming that it cant be managed correctly….I’m gonna try and condense this as much as possible and recap the ideas to get us back on track

In order to successfully produce these game species we’re managing for we only need “X” amount of grass and its not a whole lot compared to the total amount of vegetation……Ideal understory habitat would be forb dominated with grass only making up a small portion compared to the total……maybe 25 ish percent…….Every percentage point we go over that goal range doesn’t serve any other purpose than creating extra rodent food and cover……. which produces excess predator numbers……..

Many of these places that repeatedly burn in Feb/March are WAY over balanced toward grass to the point they’re probably 70-30…..80-20……or maybe even 90-10….and therefore producing WAY more predators than they have to be……This impacts the whole map and not just these stands…..big picture ideas here……The good brooding and the bad are ALL receiving higher predation pressure than they have to be on a landscape level

Not only are some of these places producing a way higher density of grass than what is needed……NONE of it is being grazed the way the system is really supposed to function...... so you’re already behind the 8-ball to begin with on grass height and seed production ……Add the out of balance density to that and we’re talking about WAY, WAY more rodent habitat being produced than what should be…..It becomes a bastardized version of the naturally balanced system we claim to be mimicking…….This is causing major predator issues that could be reduced if the grass management practices on these places were changed and brought into check.....This goes for any place whose management is creating imbalanced grass stands

Also poor on my Rudbeckia but I believe black eyed susan - great deer browse and seeds

Hypericum or St Johns wart

also skullcap

One of the native vetches or tephrosia

A good example, in amongst the grasses, of all the forbs including solidago and eupatorium

Literally the other side of the road showing partridge pea and dog fennel. This WILL look like a solid grass stand after frost kills back the forbs

Talk about a native grassland, this is a restored prairie that was solid cedar a couple decades ago. Cedar were removed and fire re-introduced. This is coneflower and cardinalflower amongst native Indiangrass, big bluestem, little bluestem and bushybeard bluestem

Well the first pics in this thread are from a place that has been burning after quail season for maybe a century - March and April mostly like all the other quail plantations, so there is that
The other place I posted pics on is at least a decade and a half in to the "open canopy pine" management and has been burned on a 2 year rotation in Mar - June for at least that amount of time.


Again, I would disagree. While I would like more forbs in my understories, I don't want a forb dominated system. The grass is #1 selected for nesting for both quail and turkeys. Just about every nest of either of these will have bluestems as a component of the nest site where they have it available. If it isn't available, quail basically wont have nesting cover.

In addition, have you ever tried to burn a forb system? Not sure if you have ever burned any of these systems or ever even carry (or carried) a driptorch, but just try to burn a forb field - even in Feb when everything burns - and see how it works. We burn..... a lot... The grasses and pine straw ARE the fuel that carries a fire. No matter when we burn, the forb fields we set up are "fire refuges" and don't burn. Doesn't matter if we burn in Feb or July.


Again, not sure I agree. I haven't seen any research that indicates higher predation pressure on grass dominated vs forb dominated systems. I have seen data that indicates higher rodent populations lead to higher nest and brood success in quail. You have this theory that more grass = more predators but do you have any data to back it up?

BTW, Feb burns on quail places is really not a thing. They rarely burn during quail hunting season and it, historically, goes out at the end of Feb.


I have had no luck getting any of the landowners I work with to to a study looking at rotational grazing in quail management systems. I think it would be awesome and would yield some positive results at low AU densities. Gulsby would love to do the research if someone would fund it and a landowner would do it. Since you know every one of these large plantation owners and " There’s not a whole lot of that map that I haven’t set foot on……I know what’s there and what’s not", maybe you can convince one of them to try it. Ill help raise the funding.

I knew I should have added that line about enough grass for carrying fire........See that's what I get for trying to be short winded.......

So whether its Feb or March…….we’re talking about the same repeated management practices that cause the grass density to increase over time until it reaches a point of saturation……That is the outcome we are getting ……That repeated quail plantation timing/frequency/intenisty is probably just right to be wrong when it comes to creating this effect that’s giving the grass the advantage……

On the rodent front……..One of the problems with “studies” is that the person reading them doesn’t always think the situation completely through and think deeper into why they got the outcome they did or what it really means…….I could go down here into the plantation belt right now and preform a study where I showed that in the years where rodent populations were higher that nesting/brooding success increased………That simple statement doesn’t however encompass the bigger system processes that are taking place and its far from a definitive “conclusion” to draw off of concerning best management practices……..

You’re also still ignoring the landscape level impacts and THAT is the main idea behind it all……One of the big questions that Dr. Collier presented and probably why folks tried to silence him is because he was asking the question……”Why do we continue to go in the hole on a landscape level even in areas where individual properties are being improved?”………Its likely because many of these properties are producing a heavy imbalance of grass and creating more predators than they are turkeys when it comes to the bigger picture…….
I know you see this too and it’s the very reason you originally posted that you agreed and have been pointing it out for decades……You understand that’s its severely out of balance……You just don’t want to accept that it could be causing more problems than what its helping…….That’s a tough pill to swallow for the guys that are doing it……I get it……Most folks have been well intentioned in doing so and its hard on several levels to admit that it might have been wrong.

I’m gonna let you have it now…….post away and paint the picture you want seen...

Ok
Quite literally the grassiest area I could find on a place that has been managed like this for maybe a hundred years. On the map. Sea of grass
This is 2 year rough. Burned last year so you can see the grass from last year. Still LOTS of forbs although they are suppressed because they were not burned this year. They will be prevalent next year

Same spot - wand lespedeza (virginica I think)

legumes in unburned


Deer bed.... imagine that in a biological desert!

Browsed golderrod (solidago) among the grass

Rattlesnake master Eryngium yuccifolium


Literally the other side of the road where it was burned this spring

Ground cover there

Got it. You can disagree with their conclusions because they "didn't think the situation completely through". Im sure if they did (and they were smart enough) they would agree with you.



Not sure there is a conspiracy to silence collier. I may disagree but am happy he is speaking his mind. Can you show the time mark on the statement you are quoting. I would like to listen specifically.


While I would love to see some grazing in this system (because I think it is natural) and do think some of these places can become grass heavy, I still would take it over pretty much ANY other habitat management we now know. I don't see it severly out of balance. I see it as closer to the habitat that Bartram described in the early 1700's than any other we have. I think some of the grass heavy areas could become better brood and, even, nesting cover for deer and turkeys. But the variety and quality of plants available in these systems has no rival in Alabama's woods IMO.

Ill let you have it to slam quail plantation habitat and management and post your bias.

Looks good and the bare ground how much does that matter in poult production. I’d assume high in the list especially in their early days.

Any beauty berries. Get them started birds/turkeys love them.

Individual plant health is suffering …….Look at the first pic as an example…..A lot of yellowy/purple plant colors …….Things should be a lush green….…….Likely have nutrient imbalances going on……Could be basically N deficient from the grass over load bogging the system down……..C:N imbalance…….The more recent burn looks a little better……Probably still benefiting from the nutrient release of the fire

It probably goes without saying but those yellowy colored broadleafs are virtually useless food sources…..I mean they may start hitting some when they get really hungry but if you’ll look there was a reason they chose the goldenrod……There’s a few plants that will hang in there to the end even in the worst conditions……

More specifically about the 2 year ruff……I bet last year’s dead vegetation is trying to decompose as soil temps are warming and its robbing all the available N from the system……I bet the health of the grasses may perk up some later in the summer when/if decomposition peters out…..I believe they are C4…..Again, all the stress you see in the pics being another symptom of an imbalanced system……You need more legumes and a lot less grass….The legumes that are present appear stressed as well……...

It would be interesting to see a time lapse with some more pics from the same spot as summer progresses……I suspect the few healthy broadleafs will slowly disappear and the grasses will take over more and more….……Overall the majority of the two year rough appears to be very poor forage quality…….If we graphed out the availability of quality forage in this specific system above it would probably be fair for a month or two immediately following the burn and then swiftly decline for the next 22 months afterwards……

This is how things just continue to get done the same way they’ve always been done despite glaringly obvious issues…..Our eyes get trained to see things a certain way and issues don’t even register to us even when they are right there staring us in the face……Its how folks can look at the same pic and see two totally different things……You just gotta recalibrate your eyes

Yes, I should learn from the master. The truth teller.

You say this


I go take a bunch of pics in the grassiest areas I could find in fresh burn and 2 yr rough and you go from "there are no forbs and legumes in the sea of grass" to ".... well... they are very unhealthy and don't provide any nutrition.".... All while totally ignoring the questions and points I noted. Got ya


Can you show the time mark on the statement you are quoting. I would like to listen specifically.
You have this theory that more grass = more predators but do you have any data to back it up?
Not sure if you have ever burned any of these systems or ever even carry (or carried) a driptorch?

I want to play. Are my forbs green enough? They’ve received considerably more rainfall than Gobblers.

I took these today while riding around with the wife. I manage them with frequent fire and occasionally fall discing.

Oh, I’ve heard and seen quail at every one of these in the last week. No hogs though.

A few more on a tract in north AL that has as many quail as anywhere I know around here.

That right there is SHONUFF quality vegetation management for quail, deer, turkey, hawks, owls, rats, coyotes, rat snakes, grasshoppers, moths, caterpillars and maybe even a Sasquatch. It is wildlife rich.

Whatchu talking bout Willis??.... ..... We had over 9 inches of rain here last month. Heck I was thinking about giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying they could be suffering from lack of O2......

We had between 17”-21” in May depending on where you were. It’s been a wet one and there’s lots of forbs right now.

I gotcha……I thought you were insinuating that we were suffering from drought or something……That’s all its been this spring is rain and more rain

Another sea of grass property looking at burned and unburned. OMG the forbs and legumes! Yep lots of grass but in between a wealth of good food, cover and bugs!

This is the unburned side

some of the spots are pretty thick with indian grass

but the legumes growing in amongst them are amazing




a little ragweed to go with your legumes

It couldn't be more obvious how MANY forbs and legumes grows within the grass clumps


[img]https://i.postimg.cc/XvRcT06n/IMG-7058.jpg[/img]
ALL of these look like a grass monoculture in the fall and winter when the grass is the only thing showing.....until your pants are covered with delectable beggarweeds.

All these pics make me want to light a pine stand on fire asap

CNC will be along shortly with a cut and paste video to tell you how wrong you are.

Need to hit it with a grass select herbicide…..What would be great is if you could go through spraying like 6-8 ft swaths through the stand and then skip say 4-6 ft and spray another swath and so on.....so that you're thinning the grass and not completely eliminating it……or……you could run some cows across for a few days to let them target graze the grasses and fertilize the broadleafs……I kinda wonder though with it all being stressed and yellowy how well they would graze it. If you look the plant color is a yellow hue on a lot of it and many of the tips on the grasses are firing browns and purples……It might depend on the breed of cattle how finicky they would be to such.

How would you keep the cows from eating the broadleafs?

I wouldn’t be worried about the cattle nibbling on a few of the broadleafs……As long as they took a bunch of that grass and converted it to manure and stirred up the seed bank in the process I’d consider it a success……It’s the new flush of vibrant green growth that comes back after you take them off that you’re after……I might still hit it with a grass select herbicide after it started growing back…..The plant health in that stand is on the struggle bus and its most likely stemming from the imbalance of grass on marginal upland soil…..Yellowy nutrient deficient plants don’t do us a whole lot of good.....They should be a deep green with lime green (almost fluorescent colored) growing tips

Here’s an example of good plant color…….This is in June as well…..Deep green with lime green growing tips

Cows will eat every broadleaf in there before they eat the grass. Mostly anyway. There won’t be nothing left but dog fennel

I doubt that…..I cant say from having firsthand ever watched a cattle herd graze a stand like that but I’ve researched about every video out there on grazing diverse natives and I’ve yet to come across one example of anything remotely close to such happening…..but…….. when looking at the current condition of that stand I’d be far more concerned with improving the fertility of the soil and the species composition balance for the next flush of growth than about how many poor quality broadleafs the cows eat out of this one stand…….Like I said before, I’m just hoping they’ll eat it period in that condition

Treating this stand with a round of “cow” isn’y robbing the deer herd of a mass amount of lush forage…..Its creating it for them on the future reflushes…….This stand wouldn’t see “cow” again for months……meanwhile the deer and other game forage on the new growth……That’s how rotational grazing is suppose to work……Everyone that does it say the wildlife come in right behind the cow as you would expect….the same way they come in right behind the fire

In those videos I just posted of Dr Lashley he talks about how the forage quality after fire falls off over time…….On a two year rotation your basically getting the best quality forage for the first few months and then its falling off for then next 18-20 or what have you…..The idea of applying “cow” rotationally is resetting that flush on a quicker time table……..After fire when that forage quality falls off then you apply cow for a short duration to create another reflush the best quality plant growth……The cattle are also serving a vital role in keeping your soil cycle efficiently recycling……efficient decomposition and all……the things that create good lush plant growth to begin with…

CNC apparently knows as much about cows as he does turkeys. The throw and mow forum called, they want you back

I’ve seen it plenty of times. Plenty. 95% of those Forbs will be gone if you turned cows out in that. They won’t eat the dog fennel but that’s about it. And they will eat the yellow stuff too. They don’t care. It’s a cow.

Well….like I said, either way.........when looking at the situation above and trying to fix the issues its having for the long term that's really not a big concern…….It would be like not using fire because its consuming low quality forage……Applying ”cow” is just applying another tool like a roller chopper or a drip torch, etc……They reset succession and create that new flush of growth that’s the most attractive and nutritious…….Cow is the only one though that applies manure in the process……Converting a bunch of excess grass forage to fertilizer would be huge in restoring proper function and fertility to stands like we’re discussing…..

Again, I’m not trying to knock any individuals……I’m just pointing out pretty serious flaws I think we have in the system……We’re not managing nearly as productively as we think in a lot of these situations…….and we are for sure way off from what we have the potential to manage for if we made a few adjustments and focused on soil health, plant health, and stand composition to go along with the fire……

Here's a few things concerning grass clumps that I think will hold true……You could probably make a couple nice slides for the slide show out of it …..You are going to have…..1) the density of grass clumps the system is able to efficiently support at any individual site……..and…… 2) the density needed to meet the landowner objectives……

The first one #1) is going to be dictated by the soil type (sand, silt, blackbelt gumbo, etc)…….the location (on a ridge top, in a bottom, on a north or south facing slope, etc)……..and the fertility and management of the topsoil………In general the drier and less fertile the site, the lower number of grass clumps the system can productively run…..I think it's probably a matter of not having the water and nutrient capacity to grow and cycle a high tonnage of carbon naturally…..

Then there’s #2) the number required to meet the landowner’s objectives……..I think this density is way, way lower than most people realize when it comes to turkey and deer……Even if we throw in quail I think the ideal density is still way lower than we envision and manage for in many situations…..What I’m getting at is…..Even if the site quality from #1 allows for much higher grass density like the picture I posted the other day from the blackbelt stand of nearly pure 6ft tall grass…..we don’t necessarily need the extra grass production for deer, turkey, quail management…..In fact it only works against us to produce more and more by feeding the wrong wildlife…..

Dr. Craig Harper, who is probably the leading authority on early successional habit, says you don’t need more than 30% grass.

30% grass stems, 30% grass species composition, 30% grass canopy coverage?
30% grass coverage in a 2' square sample block, 30% grass coverage in a pine stand, 30% grass coverage on a property? Makes a difference. If in a "timber stand" how do you control the density to 30%.

They state some interesting facts from a study on mammal frequency in burn units.

In a nutshell they say that animals like coyotes, coons, foxes, bobcats, armadillo frequency goes down the more fire is used. Not up.

Fair question.. I think it’s in terms of whatever your early successional understory is, whether pine savanna or old field. For early successional habitat, he says 30% should be the maximum. I’m just passing along what a PHD that has spent a career studying early successional habit, food plots and fire recommends as what the ideal early successional habit looks like.

Well I guess you got to pull grass out the timber stand. Duh.

Here's that study if you want to take a closer look at it.....Click on "open pdf in browser"......Are you sure they wasnt measuring skwerls?

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4514077

In my opinion that’s just a generalized rule of thumb for easy quick explanations…..If you get deeper into the weeds it would probably be better to express it as individual stand density measured in average clumps per acre…….Here’s a down and dirty explanation of what is actually going on from a plant community/soil function aspect and what ultimately really matters in the end…….Dont hold me to it but I think I got most of it pretty close to right…….

Each clump of native grass represents “X” amount of carbon……….I think a native grass plant is like 48% carbon by weight or something like that…..In order for the system to function properly you need “Y” amount of broadleafs and legumes to balance out the nitrogen demand that makes the cycle go round efficiently…….I’ve always thought about it like a carbuerator……Every unit of gas needs so many units of air for it to balance and run correctly or you become too rich or too lean…….

The amount of space around that one grass clump that it takes to grow our “Y” amount of broadleafs and legumes depends on the site fertility…….The higher the site fertility the more broadleaf plant tonnage able to be produced per sq ft …………If we think of each grass clump as a “housing unit” surrounded by a square full of the broadleaf tonnage it takes to support that housing unit……the site fertility is going to dictate how big that square needs to be…..Higher fertility technically allows for scaling down your “management units”……We're talking about units on the finest scale of 2 by 2 foot areas or 4 by 4 etc

Now go back to our example stand gobbler posted that we’ve been discussing…….The issue is that the grass density or carbon load has become more than what the broadleaf and legumes on the site can balance out without grazers involved to convert some of the grass to manure……The end result is that all the plants are suffering from the carbon imbalance robbing the whole system of N……Your carburetor is flooding with too much fuel…..Your running too rich……….There’s probably also competition for soil moisture to consider…..The imbalance of grass on a dry site is probably stressing things as well from the standpoint using too much water…..Its like cereal rye stressing clover when it goes to seed because of the water its using

Yes they measured squirrels too. Hogs as well. But there is no importance to turkeys with squirrels so I’m not sure why you would bring them up.

Something that I forgot about our scenario that needs adding in there to the equation are pine needles…….To go along with the carbon the grass understory is producing, the soil is also trying to break down the carbon from the pine needles too……While it may not seem like much those little boogers are just adding to your carbon load and the N you’re needing…….

Because the reality of what was done in that study, how it was done, and what was found is far from the conclusion you’re throwing out there…..But I know you’re just looking for whatever you can find to be an antagonist….. I’m actually a little surprised they would take a study like that one and reach to draw the conclusions from it that they put out there in the podcast……It’s a little sus really......I would encourage everyone to read over it and see what conclusion you come to.....Here's you an interesting quote from it

"Of the species that had a negative association to increasing burn frequency, two were non-native (feral hog, nine-banded armadillo) while the third non-native species (coyote) had no association."

I wasn’t looking for whatever I could find to be an antagonist at all. I am listening to their podcast episode by episode and this is the episode I listened to yesterday. What the biologists were discussing happened to disagree with your hypothesis on 1 year burns. Your opinion is that 1 year burns increase grass to an extent that increases rodents to an extent that increased coyote and bobcat concentrations or populations. The study simply says that the more the burn the less predators you have. You are correct I didn’t read the study until you posted it. But nowhere in the study does it support your hypothesis. In fact it says you are incorrect. Not me, the study says you are wrong. But I’m sure the study is the problem. Not your hypothesis. Even though the biologist in the study and the ones on this forum are trying to tell you that you are. As smart as you are, I just figured you would like to know the biologists that you post about all the time said you were wrong. I don’t really care either way what you believe. Have a great day.

What? I said have a great day at the end.

Craig Harper was on the Wild Turkey Science podcast today discussing most of these topics. Definitely worth a listen.

Looks like he was discussing fields. 30% grass coverage in fields. I tend to agree. In fields I would be happy with 1/3 disked, 1/3 1 year fallow and 1/3 2 year fallow. Makes a great field system

The pine needles got me to thinking more about it and its something I guess I’ve never given much thought to because I was focused on food plotting concepts….but the amount of carbon the trees are dropping on the soil is changing the dynamics of the C:N situation as opposed to the same spot without those trees present…..Imagine if you create an oak savannah for example, you’ve got a pretty significant amount of carbon being deposited on the soil each year through leaves……That’s not a bad thing because these carbon sources are what makes topsoil……You just have to have the N units to efficiently process it……That means the percentage of legumes and broadleafs to grass that you’re growing in the understory needs to be a good bit higher than if those trees weren’t there…..more legumes even less grass…….Isnt this how an oak savannah typically grow naturally??

Again, this is where a grazer would go a long ways to alleviating that nitrogen demand the system is needing……The more carbon you can process into the soil the more you can grow the soil organic matter %........ The higher levels of organic matter the more top end plant diversity the system will “vibrantly” grow with good plant color…..Grazing herds are natures helpers with carbon processing…..There’s not many other ways of feasibly managing at top end potential without them……You just don’t have the ability to process the same high end carbon loads……. Applying fertilizer at that same scale to meet N demands would cost a crazy amount…..

Until this is understood ^^^^ you’re not seeing the whole picture……

I draw the line at having to buy livestock to manage my habitat. I can justify tractors, sprayers, seeders, etc. I'm not buying cows!

Use someone else's......

I’m not s cattle expert but from what I’ve read it says that our pasture grasses go through what they call the “summer slump” where the productivity falls off…..It just so happens that this time period is when native grasses are kicking it into high gear…....I dont know but I would think a cattle person would be happy to have the additional summer grazing

Help me understand something about this whole situation……..Why are folks so hesitant just to say it like it is??.....Like the comment about not finding anything in thick grass stands but elephants and cotton rats that Dr. Harper made in the last video……They came back around to making a joke about it and he said something about y’all are gonna get me in trouble…..In trouble with who??.....Is it just a matter of tip toeing around things that might offend the way some professionals are managing??......In my mind it just is what it is…..its not a matter of feelings but rather just facts……

I know these guys, talk to them and have been in this field as long as Craig. His specialty is research and mine management. The two work hand in hand. We all KNOW that some places can become grass dominated. However grass dominated does not mean that HUNDREDS of beneficial plants don't exist in this habitat type as well. I have been preaching quail woods management style since the 80's when it wasn't popular. Then came the "NWSG" planting push from the NRCS like it was something new. NWSG plants have their own set of problems and these plantings are what Craig was referring to. A couple of species of NWSG with no other forbs that chokes out a field like fescue would. Plus, switchgrass and big bluestem become way too tall and are often NOT native to the site. I, along with other colleagues have been called (not affectionately) by pinhead deer professors "one of those early successional guys". The issue isn't that we realize that a grass dominated system (at least in the woods) can't be a problem. The issue is 1) what to do about it and 2) it is so much better than any other system of habitat that dominates the landscape. I literally would take it over pretty much EVERY other habitat type in the southeast. It is a FAR CRY from the 90% of the habitat in Alabama of shady, overstocked and midstory crowded woodlands. Its better than agriculture and way better than cattle pasture. Its better than solid hardwood stands (yea, heresy!). Instead of bitching about what a terrible system the quail plantations have created, you should applaud the fact that they are creating the best habitat in the state for wildlife. Can it be better? Yep. Is it already better than 90% of the habitat in the State? Also Yep.

Keep in mind that Craig also works in a hardwood dominated system. His discussion of 30% sunlight in a woodland is nothing like the 60-80% sunlight pine woodlands we manage. He is smart, very knowledgeable and practical but still suffers from the "professor syndrome". His description of managing a field with spot spraying and burning with variable intensities in a field is great for a 500 ac property with 50 acres of fields (maybe). Not practical for large scale management.

Great points and I agree that 60-80% open canopy is light years better than the majority of the state. I’d also argue that micro management even on a 50 acre old field is a daunting task for people that don’t live on the property and have other obligations. It only gets worse on a larger scale.

I have 40 acres or so of old field that I’m trying to manage, but it’s tough when I also have to deal with plots, maintaining roads, planting trees, hanging stands, dealing with privet, sweet gum, chinaberry, mimosa in the woods. I also have to work and I’d like to go fishing a few times this summer! 😜

It’s pretty easy to understand why most places are just a pine thicket or open hardwood stand.

I was watching a video yesterday of a guy giving a lecture on managing hardwoods for turkeys and he made mention several times in there about how the biologists and the professionals 40-50 years ago used to think we should do it like this or like that but how we’ve come a long ways in our thinking since then…..I think he said that they thought back then you needed 5000 acres of hardwoods to manage turkeys or some such as that but now we know we can manage piney woods for them, etc…..I bet they probably told the guy who first brought that idea up to stop bitching.

I wonder if years from now we’ll look back at the way we currently manage in the same manner??...... I bet we will….Seems like folks get old and so set in their ways that they rely on the next generation to come along and do a little “bitching” in order to modify the process……folks that are young enough and still open minded enough to able to change……There was a time when I wanted to start no-till food plotting because I saw all the flaws with how we were doing things there too but I didn’t have the means or enough food plot acreage to justify a drill…….What did I do?......I figured out a way…….Just sayin……..

Valid point there CNC.

I think the more money put into these research studies the more we will understand and get a grasp on what current habitat practices will be. It’s been said here and on all these podcasts, habitat as a whole is changing on the landscape at a statewide and even regional level. So I’m sure research and habitat management will change with it.

You know lot of this is just about pride right??.....Being too sensitive to take constructive criticism even if the other person is spot on in their assessment…..Like I said before, the reality is that much of our plantation management isnt nearly as productive as we think it is……The “quality” is mostly a result of a bunch of individuals owning 3-5K acres each next to each other…..I aint trying to be ugly but if your posting pictures of a stand full of yellow plants touting its productivity and not seeing the issues then there you go……You’re saying that I should quit bitching and applaud it??.... It aint no different than someone posting a picture of plowed up, eroded sand full of a bunch of nitrogen deficient wheat and you saying it’s the best we can do and I should be content with it and just fall in line

These systems are all kinds of out of whack from having massive carbon to nitrogen imbalances to having super high predator loads to having deer herds massively out of balance with the food availability and being mediocre as a result…..Its why the majority of what’s produced is just a bunch of dinks and “Midway 8’s”……I think I remember some guy named Gobbler years ago saying he would much rather hunt on land in Chilton Co than a bunch over populated Bullock Co quail plantations full of average deer……I laughed but you know what, he was right. It takes 100’s of deer and thousands of acres to produce a couple of good ones in that area…..Why??.....mostly because of poor soil management and heavily imbalanced stand composition….. Things that could be fixed if we were willing to figure out a way to correct it.

Yea, thats it. Ive never said that soil doesn't matter, productivity doesn't matter and would LOVE to see a project using grazing in a quail property and see what benefits it might have. Equating a woodland full of both native grass and abundant legumes and forbs is exactly the same as a plowed up, eroded stand full of a bunch of nitrogen deficient wheat. Got me. Im highly interested in any research that will make this system better.


I would suggest you do a post search on that one. Ive never hunted Chilton county and do recall, many times, saying I would rather hunt a quail plantation in Union Springs over any other habitat type in the State. I think you got your wires crossed. These places carry more deer per acre in a healthy condition than any other habitat type in the State. My best deer I have killed have come off of quail plantation land. Probably 90% of the deer Ive killed have come off of quail managed land. Show me a better habitat type.

Quail are the "canary in the coal mine" - the ONE game species that if we manage for it SUCCESSFULLY, we will have exceptional habitat for the other game species. I will say, a 5,000 acre quail managed place that has minimal drainages and hardwood and 90% open pineywoods is NOT optimal for turkeys. But a place that has good, intact hardwood drainages and 50-70% quail woods is excellent for turkeys as well. But the deer will do better than average for the State. If there are NO quail, I would argue that it is not great deer or turkey habitat either and can certainly be made better. Ill ask this again "Show or tell me of a place that has a huntable wild bobwhite population in the southeast that does not burn and isn't a sea of grass in their pineywoods then tell me how Im wrong". You can't. I recognize that pineywoods systems could be made better and grass coverage can be more than I want in burned pineywoods. You refuse to acknowledge the benefits of the system - hence your bias and pride and inability to take constructive criticism of your assessment.

Instead of bitching about how detrimental burned pineywoods are, post up your successful management projects - the places you have made so much better. Maybe have a field day on one of the properties you have implemented your strategies. I have. Both posted pics and have had many field days showing our management style. Easy to bitch about it when you don't have any successes yourself.

Great post! Thanks for continuing to share your real-world knowledge with us.

CNC where are the studies showing that frequently burnt pine stands create a super high predator load? I’ve only seen one study talked about on it and it showed the exact opposite.

I’m not going to keep posting up the same stuff over and over if you don’t pay attention the first time around…….You’ll have to go back and look yourself but I posted up a study about the amount of grass impacting rodent density and predator use……I think I actually referenced several examples along with videos in making my point…….Btw…..grass density is a little different than calling it burn frequency.

I may go back and see if I can find it……It was a long time ago when I first started tracking and was in a little bit of awe at the deer numbers I was seeing at the time…..The discussion was about quality and you said something to the effect that you would rather hunt on a well-managed property in Chilton (or maybe it was Autauga) that had a deer herd that was in balance with the habitat than an over populated Bullock Co qual plantation…..I remember specifically posting the response “Ok” followed by the rolling laughing emoji……

Either way though….. something that I can tell you now from a lot of first hand knowledge is that the best deer in our area don’t come from the plantation belt…..……I track WAY more big deer in other areas……I’m not going to call them out but if someone asked me to tell them the top 5 areas in southeast Alabama to kill a good one those highly touted areas around Hurtsboro and Union Springs would not be on the list…….That would be the #1 area for most likely to kill an average 8 pt…….hence the term just another “Midway 8”……..Sure there are a few good ones killed simply because of the number that’s being produced has its anomalies……but for the most part it’s a lot of very average deer.

All you need is lots an lots of pines

I’ll go back a look. Was it on this thread? Or was it another one?

I thought your reason for this thread was that you believe frequent dormant season burns were creating seas of grass that was creating a super high predator load.

Might have been true. There are 2 properties I hunt in Autauga county. The one I was probably talking about is now out of balance with the habitat and has declined - still a great place, just too many deer for the habitat. It is, however, a managed quail place and, in your opinion, a sea of grass. Regardless of the county, I would still "rather hunt on a well-managed property in (whatever) county that had a deer herd that was in balance with the habitat than an over populated (whatever) quall plantation". Simply I would rather hunt a well balanced and healthy deer herd than an overpopulated one. Duh...


Even though it may be the bast habitat in the State does not mean it cannot be out of balance. Like a bass pond, most folks don't take enough mouths off leading to low body weights and condition. Even though these places can carry more deer per acre than any other habitat in the State does not mean they should. There is still a limit and most that I see are carrying WAY too many deer - like a deer per 4, 5, or 6 acres when they should be carrying one per 10 -15 acres. The result is the same - low condition. Where is the most dangerous place to drive for deer collisions? I would argue 82 between Eufaula and Union Springs.

However, address this instead of ignoring it.
Quail are the "canary in the coal mine" - the ONE game species that if we manage for it SUCCESSFULLY, we will have exceptional habitat for the other game species. I will say, a 5,000 acre quail managed place that has minimal drainages and hardwood and 90% open pineywoods is NOT optimal for turkeys. But a place that has good, intact hardwood drainages and 50-70% quail woods is excellent for turkeys as well. But the deer will do better than average for the State. If there are NO quail, I would argue that it is not great deer or turkey habitat either and can certainly be made better. Ill ask this again "Show or tell me of a place that has a huntable wild bobwhite population in the southeast that does not burn and isn't a sea of grass in their pineywoods then tell me how Im wrong". You can't. I recognize that pineywoods systems could be made better and grass coverage can be more than I want in burned pineywoods. You refuse to acknowledge the benefits of the system - hence your bias and pride and inability to take constructive criticism of your assessment.

Instead of bitching about how detrimental burned pineywoods are, post up your successful management projects - the places you have made so much better. Maybe have a field day on one of the properties you have implemented your strategies. I have. Both posted pics and have had many field days showing our management style. Easy to bitch about it when you don't have any successes yourself.

In all seriousness I’m not sure what it is you’re wanting me to address……I don’t know all of the places in the southeast that have quail or don’t have quail……I can show you a video of a ranch in Texas that manages without fire but this has never been about advocating for folks to stop burning……I think we’ve addressed that several times along the way…….It started out as a discussion about turkeys and got turned into one about quail for some reason……

You: Hundreds of posts about how quail plantation management is ruining the wildlife of the State because of a "sea of grass"
Me: Quail plantation management creates the best wildlife habitat the State has to offer
You: I don't know how this got to be a discussion about quail

Gobbler is very knowledgeable and keeps presenting actual factual application of in his management practices. CNC you just like to pick nits which also has its place. Very interesting topic and been following

I’m chiming in cause gobbler is making a point I noticed many years ago hunting a property in MS SW of Oxford. A friend was in a deer club that was owned by a wealthy family out NY. Nash Buckingham hunted and wrote about his palace. Nailed to trees were signs thruout the woods about the dogs he hunted over.

That being said, the land was managed strictly for quail, to the point of the family came in to hunt the deer club shut down. The land butted up to a national forest on one side that was heavily pressured

I saw more deer and turkey on that place than anywhere in my life. They killed 200 plus deer off that place every year. They also killed a few BC deer and tons of 130s and up and it wasn’t inside the levy. The place was burned incrementally every year. Mostly pine/grasslands rolling hills and hardwood drains with a few hardwood savanna ridge tops. I’ll say when gobbler post pics of places he manages it takes me back to that place in MS. Rob was in that club during the mid 90s and was told it had always looked like that from what the older hunters said

Heard a biologist mention hundreds of times.

If you manage for something 5 inches tall, all the others benefit too!!!!

I remember QDMA having an article that went further and mentioned snakes as a great indicator of habitat quality. Snakes are there because of the rodents. Rodents indicate certain plants a present.

Picking nits? I guess it just depends on the things you perceive to be important or not……

lol case in point

Same. Thanks for sharing and showing what’s possible. I’d love for every bit of our acreage (or at least most of it 😁) to look like the pics you’ve shared

https://www.facebook.com/reel/2018139919073444