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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916 |
I don’t think deer are “synching up” or merging estrous dates……It’s a numbers game just like the example I was giving with county “X” and it filling up with 5000 does…….Which 5000 females does it fill up with in what combination and who dominates one area or another moving forward??.....When you released those 15 does from Sumter Co was there already 500 present of another lineage that had a head start??.....That kinda stuff is what has caused the differences in my opinion…..The same thing is occurring in my area around Russell, Lee, and Barbour…..The does are just following the estrous dates of their mothers and grandmothers
Last edited by CNC; 02/20/25 10:56 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,898
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,898 |
What about the doe that doesn't get bred until her 3rd estrous. Does this rewind her biological clock? When will she come into estrous next year? Just more to think about.
Grandma said...Always keep a gun close at hand, you just never know when you might run across some varmint that needs killing...
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916 |
Nature chooses winners and losers as a means of adapting and changing……she doesn’t take an average of the two to find optimal……That whole concept just doesn’t really fit how nature operates IMO
Last edited by CNC; 02/20/25 11:56 AM.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916 |
The general concept of what’s occurring is that does keep the estrous timing of their foremothers…..The more difficult part to figure out in any given area is when you have multiple different stocking sources that herds grew from and you want to figure out what ratio each stocking source now makes up of the total in any given area……If we turn 5 different stocking sources loose in Walker Co then which doe lineages win and who loses…..or do they all multiply equally across SPACE and TIME…… The answer is most likely no….no they don’t….. Some were turned loose before others…..Some may have just died by chance…..etc……So therefore when we reach our capacity of 5000 does years down the road and things begin to just "recycle"...... then we have the potential to have quite a number of different scenarios that could have played out…..We end up different lineages occupying different areas in different ratios....That's the way it appears to me anyways..... 
Last edited by CNC; 02/20/25 12:30 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676 |
Here's an honest question for Matt, based somewhat on CNC's question above. Will deer do like humans from the sense that if you throw 75 women in a sorority house and they are living in close proximity to each other 24/7, within 12 months most will be cycling at pretty much the same time of the month. Would the deer from different stocking dates slowly synchronize with the predominate estrous date for the majority of the native herd, in the area in which they are stocked (assuming that the stocked deer make up a non-significant minority of the overall resident doe population at time of stocking)? That’s tough to answer. I’m not sure anything concrete has been determined. I can give you my observations. Bankhead for example, for 65-70 years had a very unique breeding season 30-60 days ahead of any native populations around. The populations were not allowed to interbreed simply due to the expansive area between them and native deer. In the late 80s and 90s they tried to kill as many of the native deer as possible and restock with Sumter co deer. Hundreds of them. Over time, the breeding dates have become a commingling of November to January. It’s really a mess. In areas outside Bankhead it would appear does have adopted a syncing of the two populations, with dates ranging in the mid to late December range. The farther you get from Bankhead the dates go to normal native AL ranges, being late December to mid January. The large assumption, is that local populations have adapted their peak breeding times over centuries, and are genetically programmed to come into estrus in sync. When you mix populations, you have the entire range of possibilities. Most restocking efforts were on such a small scale you don’t see much influence from the stocking source any longer. Native deer did what native deer do and naturally expanded back into areas they had been extirpated. Small scale releases scattered in a shotgun pattern over large geographic areas didn’t really accomplish much. Large scale releases did. Why did game and fish try to kill off all the native deer? Seems counter productive to me.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 24,916 |
The whole thing isnt completely stable at this point …..I mean it is for the most part but it isnt…..There’s still the potential for change to occur in different areas just depending on which does win and which does lose……Anything that occurs that tips that balance in favor of one lineage over another in any given area could cause change…..better birth rates….better fawn survival…..hunters shooting one more than the other…etc..….As it is though I don’t think we really have anything these days that’s doing that…….Its really just a matter of recycling the same numbers…….Its the 5000 total doe population being recycled over and over with about the same ratios of lineages occurring in the same areas over and over…….All of the doe shooting we do is just choosing random winners and losers…….but……the potential is still there for change to occur…..
Last edited by CNC; 02/20/25 01:03 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 9,470 Likes: 2
Fancy
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Fancy
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 9,470 Likes: 2 |
Here's an honest question for Matt, based somewhat on CNC's question above. Will deer do like humans from the sense that if you throw 75 women in a sorority house and they are living in close proximity to each other 24/7, within 12 months most will be cycling at pretty much the same time of the month. Would the deer from different stocking dates slowly synchronize with the predominate estrous date for the majority of the native herd, in the area in which they are stocked (assuming that the stocked deer make up a non-significant minority of the overall resident doe population at time of stocking)? That’s tough to answer. I’m not sure anything concrete has been determined. I can give you my observations. Bankhead for example, for 65-70 years had a very unique breeding season 30-60 days ahead of any native populations around. The populations were not allowed to interbreed simply due to the expansive area between them and native deer. In the late 80s and 90s they tried to kill as many of the native deer as possible and restock with Sumter co deer. Hundreds of them. Over time, the breeding dates have become a commingling of November to January. It’s really a mess. In areas outside Bankhead it would appear does have adopted a syncing of the two populations, with dates ranging in the mid to late December range. The farther you get from Bankhead the dates go to normal native AL ranges, being late December to mid January. The large assumption, is that local populations have adapted their peak breeding times over centuries, and are genetically programmed to come into estrus in sync. When you mix populations, you have the entire range of possibilities. Most restocking efforts were on such a small scale you don’t see much influence from the stocking source any longer. Native deer did what native deer do and naturally expanded back into areas they had been extirpated. Small scale releases scattered in a shotgun pattern over large geographic areas didn’t really accomplish much. Large scale releases did. Why did game and fish try to kill off all the native deer? Seems counter productive to me. They liberalized the harvest regs to remove more of the Michigan strain deer. They wanted to replace them with southern strain deer.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,676 |
Here's an honest question for Matt, based somewhat on CNC's question above. Will deer do like humans from the sense that if you throw 75 women in a sorority house and they are living in close proximity to each other 24/7, within 12 months most will be cycling at pretty much the same time of the month. Would the deer from different stocking dates slowly synchronize with the predominate estrous date for the majority of the native herd, in the area in which they are stocked (assuming that the stocked deer make up a non-significant minority of the overall resident doe population at time of stocking)? That’s tough to answer. I’m not sure anything concrete has been determined. I can give you my observations. Bankhead for example, for 65-70 years had a very unique breeding season 30-60 days ahead of any native populations around. The populations were not allowed to interbreed simply due to the expansive area between them and native deer. In the late 80s and 90s they tried to kill as many of the native deer as possible and restock with Sumter co deer. Hundreds of them. Over time, the breeding dates have become a commingling of November to January. It’s really a mess. In areas outside Bankhead it would appear does have adopted a syncing of the two populations, with dates ranging in the mid to late December range. The farther you get from Bankhead the dates go to normal native AL ranges, being late December to mid January. The large assumption, is that local populations have adapted their peak breeding times over centuries, and are genetically programmed to come into estrus in sync. When you mix populations, you have the entire range of possibilities. Most restocking efforts were on such a small scale you don’t see much influence from the stocking source any longer. Native deer did what native deer do and naturally expanded back into areas they had been extirpated. Small scale releases scattered in a shotgun pattern over large geographic areas didn’t really accomplish much. Large scale releases did. Why did game and fish try to kill off all the native deer? Seems counter productive to me. They liberalized the harvest regs to remove more of the Michigan strain deer. They wanted to replace them with southern strain deer. I get that, sounds dumb to me. They brought the Michigan deer here. What's wrong with having Northern deer , other Southern states have them?
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 13,063
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 13,063 |
interesting and makes sense
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