Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Patch burn graze

I have a question. How do we convince timber companies that own large tracts of land across this state to do patch work burns? In my opinion that is something that needs to be looked into by folks with influence. From my personal experience they want little to do with us peasants that pay the leases. When it comes to discussing habitat improvement etc. that falls on deaf ears! We as lease holders need help convincing these companies to discuss habitat improvements with those of us that are willing to help foot the bill.

I know there are good many private landowners that burn across the state, but I am only aware of one timber company that consistently burns thousands of acres annually.

Obviously, I’m aware of the company you are referencing that burns a lot.

For everyone else - the question begins and ends with liability. That’s it - lawsuits are real. That fight will be a state by state issue to offer some protection from litigation. Will that ever happen. Highly doubtful.

Pigs love the overabundance of thick grass

I’ll add this - as you likely know, I help look after thousands of acres in the SW part of the state currently. For our management strategy, to fit current markets, burning is not beneficial in any way for us currently. Given that, how do you make it worthwhile?

Taxes. State might be interested to reduce overall fuel. Burn “x” amount every year or every other year and receive a credit.

I took my test field from less than 1% organic matter to 6%.......The webs you see (predators) are an indicator of just how vibrant the insect food web has become. I don’t know that you’ll find research papers on this but the soil OM % has huge implications on the quality and quantity of plant and insect diversity.

The place in Texas, not the hunting club noted above, was about 3000 acres total. The area of it that I hunted year before last was about 800 acres of it. They run about 1 cow per 12 acres in that area of Texas. So probably 50 or 60?

Yeah, not that type of habitat tho in my area of Alabama. Pigs love about anything where they can eat and make more pigs.

Yeah I am fully aware of the benefits for the lease holder/wildlife do not outweigh the risk/liability for the timber companies. That is why I would like to see something put in place that is a win for everyone involved. What exactly that consist of will vary based on each company. I do think the state could start with some type of tax incentive along with reducing the lability risk. I understand this is a very complicated issues due multiple factors and nothing will ever come of it.

As a manger of timberlands, you know better than anyone that a lease holders hands are tied when it comes to managing habitat. That is one way to be quickly kicked off the lease or have a nice bill to pay for the damage. It simply is not worth the risk on the lease holders end to manipulate the property in any kind of way without prior permission.

I definitely appreciate what the one timbe company does on the property I am involved with. It makes a huge difference in my personal opinion.

If you want to truly “maximize wildlife production” you need to manage for highly organic soil with the proper plant structure within an irregular mosaic of patches across the landscape…….. Patch burn grazing with cattle will accomplish these goals…..If you don’t think its worth the hassle then what else would you suggest doing to achieve the same results?? I don’t know that there are other options that would create the same end result.

There’s just not enough money in leasing land for hunting to make managing for wildlife profitable. One club I’m very familiar with pays the lease and then a fee on top of for every acre of plot. They get a credit for every plot that is on a powerline.

Something else that needs to be considered about this idea that is but isnt being mentioned in any of these videos and papers is the effect that intense burning has on the soil life. The videos DO mention that patch burn grazing reduces the intensity of the fires due to reducing the grass fuel load and I think that’s a big factor in maintaining a healthy living soil. I think you can get fires so intense with some of these heavy fuel loads that you kill off all of the soil life within the top 3-4 inches of the soil horizon where most of it lives. When that occurs then you’ve created a biological desert in the soil that has to repopulate itself……. and if we’re talking about doing such across a large stand then it may take years for soil life to return.

The reason I ask is because there are a lot of variables to consider before just making a blanket statement that “cows are bad for turkeys”……which I don’t believe is true at all. Sure, if I take a small property and introduce a bunch of cows across the entire area in a short time period then there’s likely to be some shock to the system that occurs. What I envision with anyone who was gonna try it would be to start out small and build up to whatever number of cattle that eventually accomplished the end goal you’re looking for…….

Texted my buddy in Texas and gave me a little more info. I hunted the area in March 2021 when there was plenty of turkeys, they moved the cows in in October 2021, hunted again March 2022, zero turkeys in the area. Both were opening weekend. May be an outlier, but certainly actual data on cattle and turkeys. This was natural habitat that turkeys were thriving in not cow pasture. Hopefully this will help in yalls “cow” theories even tho it doesn’t affirm it. All real data is useful in analysis.

That’s the million dollar question.

My ideas in a broad sense, would be as follows:

1. Work on landowner incentives to make the habitat impacts you refer to.
2. Focus research to establish the catalyst behind the turkey population decline. Mismanaged pine plantations took over the south, long before turkeys started declining. Could it be widespread feeding/baiting? Herbicide treatment of timberlands? Some disease? Increase in predators? Change in timber practices? Simply the ebb and flow of population trends? Hunters?
3. Study and promote less effective things, that can be easily implemented. Trapping, planting specifically for turkeys, etc.


I certainly don’t have many answers, except that burning can’t help on a broad scale, unless it’s implemented on a wide scale. And no matter how much research is produced about the wildlife benefits, landowners will not utilize it unless they get something in return or at very least shed some liability.

I like the idea of having extremely limited opportunity for out of state hunters on public land. Make it a lottery. This increases the value of turkeys on private land. Some landowners might see some value in managing for turkeys.

Some of the highest turkey populations I’ve seen were on properties with rotational grazing in prairie and forested areas. I’ve tried to promote more forbs and less grass on a few test areas with growing season fires. Dormant burning promotes grass in a big way.

I always liked hunting turkeys around cows. I always thought it was cause they scratched for bugs it their poop. At least, that’s what I always saw them doing. 🤷‍♂️

I hunted a place in TX that had cattle and it was freaking loaded with turkeys. The cattle grazed just enough to keep an open landscape, yet still had clumps of escape cover and patches for nesting. The turkeys loved it!