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Listen to Dr. Woods towards the end of his clip: "There's no one-size-fits-all management plan." 9er and company blames ppl like this man for the 3 buck limit or opponents of QDM/QDMA attempt to paint followers of QDM into a corner by saying: it's all about trophy bucks, kill, kill, kill all the does you see, first-time-hunters can't kill an immature buck, etc...

Regarding the one-size-fits-all 3 buck limit here in Alabama... no hunting regulation exists that will satisfy everyone. You go with the "lesser evil" of all the mgmt plans, which is better than no mgmt at all.

Dr. Grant's concern: A healthy deer herd. How can anyone not respect this man's philosophy?


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Yeah I think most people would agree with that. It's hard to regulate though. Unless they do a survey and break it up into zones and set different regulations for different zones. No matter what they do people will always gripe.

The choice is not between a buck limit and no management. Where did you get that idea?

Most clubs already have a management program in place. In fact, every club I know of in this area has some sort of goals.

Their plan can fit their circumstances. Exactly like Dr. Woods says.....not one size fits all.

Most pple would not rob a bank, or murder, or embezzle, .... but there's a law against these acts.

How about game limits on game, period? I.E. Ducks? Just kill what ya want?

The state had to do something to stop ppl from killing X number of bucks per year and stop the "attitude" that killing all the bucks you can makes you a great hunter!!

Funny how my kids don't EVEN complain about putting on their seatbelt but their grandparents did! Oh, I know... what if we run off a bridge and hit water and they can't get their seatbelt off and drown!

I watch these all the time good stuff

If your ever in my truck and we hit the water there is a seat belt cutter right in front of you in the glove box!

There you go again comparing killing 4 deer to murder. Your priorities must be really screwed up if you can't see the difference.

Also...how has the law done as far as stopping murders? Someone was murdered in Montgomery yesterday from what I heard on the news.

Also...there is no bag limit on hogs and no season. We still have hogs. There is no limit on coyotes and lots of folks trying to kill them but we still have more and more coyotes. FL has not limit on rabbits....still has rabbits.

The trend was already going in the right direction. Something was already being done. People were already being more selective in their buck harvest. All the three buck limit does is set an arbitrary number that is too many for some places, not enough for others, and I am sure ignored by many. Probably makes you feel good though.

[quote=Bucktrot]Most pple would not rob a bank, or murder, or embezzle, .... but there's a law against these acts.

[/quote

I've used this logic numerous times with 9er and Coffee and they just ignore it and move on. If most clubs abided by game laws and had self imposed rules, as coffee states, then why is so much corn bought during hunting season and why are most processor stacked to the hilt with yearling and 2 year old bucks? Right now processors provide more data than anything else. Sad but true. 9er wants stats and proof but he doesn't want the state to impose new regs. that would help provide that data. It's a lot easier to make accusations when no one can "prove" one way or the other.

If so much corn is being bought and you think most clubs are not abiding by game laws, what makes you think the 3 buck limit is doing any good?

I am asking to teach people how to do better on a site specific basis. You are supporting an arbitrary limit and in the same breath saying most clubs won't abide by game laws? What logic is there in that?

jlcoffee said:

There you go again comparing killing 4 deer to murder. Your priorities must be really screwed up if you can't see the difference.

Also...how has the law done as far as stopping murders? Someone was murdered in Montgomery yesterday from what I heard on the news.

[b]Also...there is no bag limit on hogs and no season. We still have hogs. There is no limit on coyotes and lots of folks trying to kill them but we still have more and more coyotes. FL has not limit on rabbits....still has rabbits.

The trend was already going in the right direction. Something was already being done. People were already being more selective in their buck harvest. All the three buck limit does is set an arbitrary number that is too many for some places, not enough for others, and I am sure ignored by many. Probably makes you feel good though.
[/b]

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Bucktrot's reply:

Coffee, yes, it makes a lot of sense to compare deer reproduction with hogs or rabbits. One fact about pigs: A mother pig can give birth to 8 - 12 piglets in one litter and as many as 24. A sow can have 2 litters in one year. Care to take a guess at rabbits? Oh, feral hogs are considered an invasive animal so therefore, the state is not going to put a limit on feral hogs.

So a sow can give birth of up to 16-24 piglets per year. Let's see... a doe, if she's healthy can give birth of up to 2-6 per year. Pigs and deer - great comparison Coffee!

Why have any games laws, right?

You sound like the driver that says: "Anyone that goes faster than me is an idiot!! And, anyone that goes slower than me is a slowpoke! Don't try to tell me how fast I should go!"

Wait now bucktrot. The drive analogy is wrong wrong. I am saying let me shoot what is safe for me and you shoot what is safe for ypu.

You are the one saying if someone shoots 4 deer they are an idiot. I'm not trying to manage someone else's hunting on the other end of the state....you are.

I've said numerous times the 3 buck limit, as written now is just a start and is very much unenforceable. With that being said, I think a lot of clubs (that otherwise would shoot a buck a day if possible) are requiring that their members follow the 3 buck limit so they don't loose their lease. That's why I think it's making a difference, but could make a much bigger difference if we had tags. I also think some of those clubs probably didn't like the 3 buck limit, but now are starting to see some positive results from not killing every 1 and 2 year old buck they see and now are happy to abide by a 3 buck limit.

Don't forget that I told you I am all about site specific regulations, so once again if you quote me or decide to write down what I want or how i feel make sure it's accurate. If you will go back a few posts I specifically addressed why I feel that a limit set by the state is a good thing. I/ We manage our property based on factors specific to our 1600 acres. With that being said we have never nor will we ever be hampered by a 3 buck limit with regards to managing property and the herd. Find me a place that needs to kill more than 3 bucks per hunter to help with herd dynamics, buck age structure, buck to doe ratio, etc. then we can talk about the need to up the 3 buck limit. And how many people wouldn't consider killing 3 bucks a season a successful fun season? 9er loves to say that hunter numbers are dropping like flies cause we can't go out and kill all the bucks we would like to. That is complete hog wash and everyone knows it. I've been hunting for 25 years and have never killed more than 2 bucks in one season. Sure I might have a different view on killing young deer, but there isn't a "hunter" out there that would quit hunting cause 3 is the limit. If someone doesn't want to hunt cause they can only kill 3 we don't need them anyway. And as we all know only a small percentage of hunters were killing more than 3 bucks, so again, complete hog wash.

Because you think 3 is a fun season.

Because you think 3 is a successful season.

Because 3 doesn't hamper you on your 1600 acres.

Because only a few hunters were killing more than 3 anyway.

Because it works for you...you think everyone should abide by it? What's wrong with chosing 4 then? Some people would meet all thase criteria by killing 4 bucks some years.

Are these the same clubs that you just said were buying all that corn and not following game laws?

You don't think people follow game laws...so the answer is more game laws?

the word "safe" was carefully inserted, I see. That's the problem. take out the word "safe", and you end up with "let me shoot what I want and you shoot what you want"

Kind of has a different ring to it...

Exactly...I have always said education is the biggest part of it. NEver said to shoot everything.

To me that makes a lot more sense than saying shoot 3 no matter what your cirmunstances are. How is that QDM?

The state came up with 3 and you and 9er are about the only ones opposed to 3. I would say that's decent indication that most people would consider 3 bucks a successful season. Am I wrong? would 4 do it for you? If so should we change to 4 to make you and 9er happy? Heck, what about ol Joe down the road. he might need 6 to be "happy". Got to draw the line at some point. Again, if 3 is a bad number tell us why.

Like I said, please find a property where only being able to kill 3 bucks is causing a problem for the deer herd. My property was just an example, but you can take it or leave it. I know you get the point, just hard to admit

as usual taking what I say and posting it out of context, so I'll re-type what I was saying...if very few people were killing more than 3 bucks to begin with then why would hunter numbers drop cause the limit is set to 3???

I never said they did.

I get you point.

If you wanted to hunt that 1600 acres by your self, would you damage the herd if you killed 4 one year?

It's not. As I said before, state limits are one thing. QDM is another.

Here is the difference between you and I...bottom line...for some reason you think that most hunters are educated enough to choose to kill only what is appropriate for their land. I do not. I'm all about education but those of us that spend countless hours posting on this site are not the norm. There are and will always be too many slob hunters and clueless hunters out there that don't care anything about choosing to make good decisions or just don't know what decisions they should make. Unfortunately the state has to do it for them. Hunting is definitely not the only example of this in our society. I'm all about limited gov't but limited doesn't mean zero.