Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum State Wide Deer Harvest

I think you could probably take those numbers and form a direct correlation to the deer density that exists there. It takes "X" amount of deer to support killing at "Y" rate annually.... Our number in the map is the "rate". Matt and globe are exactly right when they said that area had one of the best deer densities in the state......If you were to run these same numbers for last year's data that area would be competing with the quail plantations as having the highest rates of deer harvest per acre in the state.....What they are failing to recognize though is that there was also a drastic fall off in that concentrated area too in one years time.

Yeah, there is some of that playing into it to affect the numbers but you also have deer living and being killed within the city limits too so it isnt just completely a void area that you can pull out of the equation

Yes I want the state to get rid of the 3 buck rule. I think its dumb to permit the wholesale slaughter of the doe population, and restrict the buck harvest. Then at least I have something to work with. Then we could rebalance the deer herd and not shoot a doe for a year or two. I don't need 15 bucks to breed 15 doe's. I need 1 or 2.

Lockjaw I’m not trying to be rude, but after reading your post all season you need to give up your current lease and find a better place to hunt.

Lockjaw, Actually, you need a lot more than one or two. A mature buck might breed 3 or maybe 4 does a year. Most of the time, just 2-3. Probably 50% of the breeding in AL is done by bucks 3 yrs old and younger (the ones you are wanting to kill). If your does dont get bred, they dont make baby deer for you to hunt in future years. You've got to remember, your does come in in cycles and once that cycle is over, if she hasnt been bred, it's 28 days before that doe is ready to try to breed again. A buck cannot just go from one doe to the next and breed 8-10 does in a 2 -3 week period. The does simply are not available to do that. Also, breeding is stressful on bucks. Just a few bucks trying to breed a huge number of does is unhealthy for them, it prolongs the rut and it takes a huge toll on them physically. Enough that it can affect the buck's survival, his ability to fight off disease, and also the following year's antler development. The later the doe is bred, the later she will drop those fawns the following year. The earlier the fawns are dropped, the better it is for them. I've followed most of your posts and it sounds to me like you're relatively new to hunting and like to pull the trigger and just want to be able to shoot a bunch of deer. That's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that if it's what you want to do. Most hunters go through that phase. I know that I and all my hunting friends did. If that is your goal, based on what youre describing and what others have said about where your land is located, you're hunting in a bad area to try to accomplish that goal. Pick another property, in another county if that's the case. As others have said, your biggest problem is 19 members on 1,100 acres. That's a ridiculous amount of pressure on a small parcel and your biggest problem. So if you want to accomplish your goal of seeing a lot of deer in daylight and being able to shoot a decent number of deer in a season, try not to repeat that the next go around. Good land and good hunting is like the old real estate adage........its all about location, location location.

Thanks abolt, was about to address that. You did well.

The more balanced the sex ratio is the healthier the deer. Does get bred the first cycle, bucks aren’t in as much competition and stress and fawns are dropped within a tight window.

I am not new to hunting. I have been hunting since I was in my teens. I like to shoot enough deer to have a freezer full. I am savvy enough to know 2 mature bucks give way more meat than 4 doe's. I will agree to your point about it is probably healthier for multiple bucks to breed doe's, but that doesn't correct the issue I still say exists. Which is the way the limits are, the state has diminshed the doe herd significantly. And since they have capped the number of bucks a person can kill, they have created a scenario where there are now more bucks in the state than doe's. I realize my lease doesn't represent the entire state, but let's just say for the sake of discussion, it does.

I am saying what I say based upon a certain set of data. For instance, I know the deer denisity in shelby co is lower than other parts of the state. Our range based upon what I have been able to see is 30 to 60 deer per square mile. I think if I was at 60, I wouldn't be saying a word, that would give me a pool of nearly 100 deer to shoot from. But at 30, I am really closer to 50 deer. Say 5 are mature bucks. Even at a 1 to 1 ratio, I only have 25 doe's on my lease. If I have 25, killing some wouldn't be a big deal. We killed 5 or 6 this year. Most of the doe's I see have twins too.

See where I am going? If I had 25 doe's, and 20 survived and are bred, then theoretically, I should add 10 more doe fawns this year if they just have 1, more if there are twins. Yes I know coyotes will get some. But I think with the low kill ratio, I should be seeing more of them, but I am not. So what I am saying is I have more bucks than doe's, and shooting any doe seems to negatively impact the herd. But if I took out some immature bucks for a year or maybe 2, that should give the doe's a chance to bounce back, especially if we aren't killing any. Then when I have a better ratio, we pass on the immature bucks and limit the doe kills for the next 2 years.

I have put alot into this lease. And I think it just needs to be managed a little differently. Yes less pressure. Yes we probably don't need to shoot a doe next season and see what happens. But I also think I need to get rid of some of the deer herd that isn't going to benefit me greatly. And I see shooting some of the immature bucks as a faster way to rebalance the herd. What no one has been able to say is why that isn't a good idea. Aside from the fact I would be taking a buck out of the mix that could turn into a nice one down the road. It could also turn into a cow horn spike, or a car fatality.

Let's say I have 50 deer, and 30 are bucks. We killed 2. And 6 doe's. If all the remaining doe's are bred, and they have 1 fawn at a 5050 ratio, which is what will happen, my total doe population only increases by 1. Assuming no predation. My buck population goes up by 5. So now I have 21 doe's and 35 bucks. That is what I think has happened. Only I think it has gone on longer than 1 year. I think its been a slow gradual shift from having more doe's than bucks to now having more bucks. Caused by the liberal doe harvest and restricted buck harvest. And in my case, even if we don't shoot a doe, there is only a 50% chance that doe will have a female fawn, so while my doe numbers will go up, so will my buck numbers. That is the rationale I have for wanting to take out some immature bucks for a year or two. It gets the ratio back inlime with something that can be managed better.

Here is the same data with the more traditional deer density color scheme.......

Lockjaw, I think you are really whild bill. No way you could be that clueless about deer biology and have enough intelligence to be an accountant. You had us going for a good while

You guys better lay off lockjaw because when I tried to give him the same advice on the 1.5 million my a$$ thread he called me a dick and questioned whether I had any experience on managing property. I’ve still not heard a from him after I responded with my qualifications and invited him to come see my qualifications at my house or land. I know the land he has very well and as has been stated numerous times it’s been hammered since I know the early 80s. Lockjaw you are obviously passionate about deer but I still think you need better land to do it on and killing young bucks won’t accomplish anything. You would be a good asset to a nice club somewhere for sure.

Love the post Abolt!

So if my math is following..... 1 mature buck for about every 2.5 does for him to be healthy and a successful breeder. So 10 breeding bucks, 25 does..... I like it.

One thing about the post i am not sure about. you state "50% of the breeding in AL is done by bucks 3 Yrs and younger (the ones you are wanting to kill) Why do you want to kill the 1-3 year old's?

A large portion of Montgomery County deer are concentrated in the southern part of the county. Where there are deer, there are a lot of deer. Too many in some places. Sitting right where I'm sitting now, about 5pm or so yesterday, a 14 deer doe train strolled by my house less than 75 yards from where I'm sitting on the couch. It ain’t the first time. They came from across the road headed to a green field I plant about 250 yds south of my house

Only if he is willing to listen and learn. I think his heart is in the right place, but he doesnt have a clue about basic deer biology and deer management techniques to achieve a certain goal. Honestly, I'm not sure he has a specific goal for the place. Lockjaw, if you really want to see what is on your property, what your buck to doe ratio is and what your buck age structure is. Run a real camera survey on it and quit just guessing. All this "I should have somewhere between 30 and 60 deer per sq mile and this doe should have at least one or two fawns that survive" is complete BS from a management perspective. Those are basic generalities across the whitetails SE range and while it represents the general average across multiple states in the SE, that's just something you read somewhere, and it might or might not be applicable to your property. Every property is different. Location, neighbors, hunting pressure, property history, available food, cover, diversity, bedding, water, past harvest history, all play a part. Like I said, quit guessing and run a true camera survey. Remove all bait or feed from your property for two weeks. Grid your 1100 acre property off into eleven 100 acre blocks. Use a map to make sure your get even spacing (dont just put the bait piles where it is convenient for you to get to) and place a camera and a bait pile in the middle of each block so that the bait piles are as evenly spaced out as possible. Pre-bait for two weeks to get the animals used to the site and then turn the cameras on and run the cameras for two weeks. You should get pics of 80-90% of the deer using your property on a regular basis. You'll be able to identify the bucks by age to determine your buck age structure and you can identify your does and yearlings and somewhat determine what your real fawn recruitment is. Total up the bucks, does, yearling bucks and yearling does and you'll know what your real ratio is. Identify different deer if you can because they can and will hit multiple bait sites over the two week period. Now is the best time to this before the spring green up when there is not much food in the woods. If you do a real camera survey, I think you'll be shocked at what your density, ratio and age structure really is.

And yes Ronfromramer, Lockjaw could very well be whild bill off on a tangent messing with us.

You dont want to be killing a pile of your 1-3 yr olds. Lockjaw in previous posts has expressed an urge to pull the trigger and take out a large portion of his spikes and small bucks. (to help his herd )

CNC, overlay that current map of acres per deer killed with the peak breeding map and see if it makes any sense whatsoever to be hunting deer in certain areas until the tenth day of February. 😉

I'm going to put my fat ass out on a limb and say ... it won't make sense.

I am an accountant, which is why my approach is mathmatical. It may not be your way to approach it, but it is how I do. I love the outdoors. I like to see wild life. I love to plant fields and watch them grow and be used. I was watching pic's of a big Tom strutting on one today.

Look I don't see everything people post in response to what I say. I get irritated and frustrated when I don't feel like I am getting an answer or people are being smart. I am not dumb. But I also want to know the why to a question I ask.
So WK I didn't see your answer, but I did feel you were being a smart alec and I am less likely to listen to that. And alot of the time, when I go home, I don't look at this again til the following day.

So from my math wired brain, I cannot understand how, if my buck population is higher than my doe population, how a 2 prong appoach of not shooting doe's for a couple years and also taking out some of the immature bucks would not work. To me it seems like a faster approach to getting the deer herd back into a balance that is more sustainable. And I think the state has made it worse with the limits they have in place.

Yes I know the area has issues. But I wanted something I could get into and make better. What club is going to let me walk in and take over the planting? Or listen to me? You guys dismiss alot of what I have said, yet I believe in it enough I went and bought a tractor, trailer and implements. How many guys in a club do that? Yes I know I have to many members, and that will adjust in time. I can't eat an elephant in one sitting. The members I haven't been able to control, so I have worked on other things. I am not ignoring what you guys have said. I know the area isn't the best, but its 20 minutes or so from my house.

So what I would appreciate is a went explained answer to my question from above. Why would that not be a faster way to rebalance? Or why is it a bad idea?

Shoot only 4 yr old and older bucks for the next 5 yrs to get your buck age structure corrected. Do not shoot any does for the next three years. Your bucks will work themselves out. Dispersal and competition will keep you from having too many bucks. The only way to solve your doe problem is to not shoot them.

You really do not know if your herd is buck dominant without doing a real survey. I can put 10 cameras out on my place and get almost buck pictures exclusively or I can choose 10 other locations and get almost all does.. It's all about camera placement and timing. From Jan 20th until about two weeks ago, you couldnt hardly get a picture of a doe in any of my fields (these same fields that had 5-20+ does and yearlings using them every single afternoon from bow season until the first of January). Rut started and bucks are checking those fields so often and harassing the does so bad that the does just arent staying in them anymore. They may walk through them and grab a mouthful of grass but they are on edge and get back to the woods/cover as quick as they can because they know if a buck sees them, they are going to get run into the next county. Every field I have a cam on has had bucks walking through checking it every couple hours, day and night since about Jan 10th and it's just starting to slow down now that the second round of does have come into heat and almost all the does have been bred.

And just where in Alabama is there such a place .

They’re literally all over the state. There are well managed properties with somewhat balanced sex ratios that I have worked with and will continue to work with as long as possible. It takes either a large property single owner or a cooperative effort from many smaller properties, but it can be done and the hunting is some of the finest in the south.