Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum Map of Alabama deer restocking program

Here’s an explanation for what I believe is causing this slight difference that they are distinguishing as green and brown with some areas having an early to mid Jan rut and some having a late Jan rut……It’s simply due to how things “shook out” with the original groups of deer they restocked from southwest Alabama…..If you look at the counties they pulled deer from to restock you will see that they pulled does from green and brown areas across those southwestern counties.......We took some does that had an early Jan rut date from those northern counties like Sumpter and some that had a late Jan rut date from those southern ones like Clarke and released them at different locations creating different epicenters for those doe populations to expand from……What has happened is that the different stockings have formed these isolated doe pockets over time……A lot could have happened back then with the restockings and a lot of this is most likely just due to which of those original deer survived and which didn’t and which ones went this way and which ones went that way…….but in the end you had it shake out where you still have pockets of each one today still running true to the original stockings and overlapping at these breaks. What the true map is probably gonna look like is more intense smattering of green circles in areas where those Clarke Co doe releases settled out.

What should also hold true here is that you should be able to go to area like the 3 locations where Michigan deer were released in Southern part of the state and sample that area to see if any November estrous doe lines still exist…….If there is none found then that means that those doe lines died out and didn’t make it……they didn’t get “diluted down”……..

Now, there still is the possibility that there were some bucks that made it and maybe those deer passed on some kind of other traits that are still present but if the doe stockings didn’t make it then it would be more likley the bucks didn’t either…..Also a trait carried by bucks would not stay isolated and would be very random across the landscape over time.

There’s actually a really good case someone could make here for why we should continue a restocking program of does around the state in low density areas or even moderately populated areas….…Its really no different than nature throwing off “mutations” to see if something is a better fit moving forward………We could pull does from within the state if that made it better for folks…..….You have the question here of……”Are November rutting deer a better fit for this area or that area?”………Take Bankhead for example……there were stockings of several strains of deer in that one spot yet today we predominately only see the rutting activity from the Nov deer in that area……That means those other doe lines died out for some reason……Maybe it was just chance…..……or maybe the northern does had a much higher initial fawn survival rates…..maybe the vegetation earlier in the summer is much better suited for fawn than late summer…... Same thing in the northwest corner of the state……I you look you see a release of Nov rutters and late Jan rutters released in the same spot……Yet today if I’m not mistaken that’s where you see 257 having the November rut……That means those Jan ones died out and the Wisconsin releases were the doe lines that established…..Maybe it was just chance or maybe natural selection chose for the Nov rut…..

If you do DNA testing what I believe it will likely show even in a place like Bankhead is that there will still be native Alabama genetics that show up……This would be because of how bucks behave so much differently than the does……Bucks are randomly scattering and relocating across large distances and does are not…..However, keep in mind that the bucks are not dictating rut timing with their scattering around……So every population in Alabama is likely gonna show native Alabama restocking genetics but only a few areas are gonna show other northern genetics through the isolated doe populations…..Buck genetics really should be a wash over time while doe genetics follow almost a physics like expansion formula based off of natural selection and hampered/restricted by natural and manmade barriers.

This picture may look like something from a circus but follow me here and this is how the genetics should be playing out……..In this example we have three distinct populations……the red, the blue, and the green……..The big circles represent how the doe genetic distribution is occurring and the small dots are how the buck distribution occurs. Now the way nature would work if we took these three populations and dropped them inside the King Ranch in this manner to restock it (lets assume its void of deer for our example) Natural selection is likely gonna choose for one of the three doe circles to outcompete the other ones over time if there was any distinct advantage that one group had over the other in fawn survival…….However, if we take this same scenario and we drop it into Alabama and we divide the blue and the green by a major interstate highway on this side and habitat fragmentation on that side….. then they would likely be so divided by these barriers that the green and blue doe genetics essentially exist in isolation of one another with a small amount over overlap variance….It would be very hard for each zone to impact the other one because any female mortality inside of the zone is most likely going to be filled back in by expansion from within that zone and not through immigration from outside……the interstate and fragmentation virtually shuts that down from the female side of things.

I really don't think 4 lane highways are stopping deer genetics from spreading. Even if doe groups didn't routinely cross, I can guarantee you bucks would cross highways during the rut (and therefore spread genetics from one side to the other).

Yes, bucks would cross and spread their genes……(and I know this is a simplified way of talking about “genetics” and the reality of the finer details)…..but whatever trait or gene that is being passed along that triggers doe estrous timing can only be passed on from female to female……That is the only way things could work out the way we see it happening. A doe that has a late Jan estrous date will have a daughter with a late Jan estrous date no matter which buck she is bred by…….and same goes for a Nov doe. This has to be true for the map to play out the way it does with drastically different populations side by side in many areas.

Look at the picture below and we’ll use the green area again for our example…….Let’s say you own the property outlined in red……Now its likely a given that you have constant road mortality to the north from any deer that tries to use both sides……So which direction will 9 out 10 does come from to replace the doe mortality that occurs on the red property……it most likely going to come from doe expansion from within the green circle and not from the other side of the interstate……Yes, there will be a small amount of back or forth that happens with some does and that is why you have a perimeter of variance with each population. When you take this process and play it out over and over and over then what you get is an expansion of that interior doe trait to an edge.

If we were to model what happened after the restocking efforts kinda like watching the Big Bang happen…….what you probably had happen was an expansion of doe herds carrying their original rut date traits with them that would grew like little balloons……you can look at the last map I posted that the DCNR put out to see the little balloons I’m talking about…..(keep in mind that the map isnt showing everything yet but only what they have sampled so far)…….These doe population grew and expanded from the original restockings until they hit expansion coming from other directions and then one slightly regressed and the other expanded over time back to natural and man-made boundaries where they formed intermingling areas of variance.

Shut up homo.........


I may be blowing it right over your head right now but I feel pretty confident that what I'm saying is likely to be pretty close to what is actually happening. You should go back and reread it or try to understand what I'm saying if you dont.......We've been down this road before.

Alclearcut………Look at our example property lined in red again that I just posted with I-85 to the north and let’s think about the doe groups along that northern edge……Which does do you suppose live to be say 6+ years old and which does live to be 1 year old?? How many does do you suppose live to a ripe old age using both sides of a major highway or interstate?? We can use common sense to see that there would be an extreme difference in mortality rates of does that try and use both side versus ones that don’t…….So over time what trait is the highway “selecting” for…….Its selecting for ones that don’t do that and stay on their side……and those females teach their young to do the same thing…….The major highways are perpetuating this just like it were natural selection.

Think about this too as it concerns the major highways……Look at that latest rut map again I posted that the DCNR has put out and what we KNOW to be happening……We have a map of these areas in red and green that they have identified as being distinctly different from one another……Lets take that little green dot there in the center of North Alabama that they have identified an area having a late January rut in Madison Co....... just one county to the west in Limestone Co they have identified and area with a Nov rut……Now those populations have to overlap somewhere…….Where does it make more sense that they would form a break…..just somewhere randomly in the woods or along a natural or man-made break?

CNC chiming in 15+ post in 1 day this thing started in 2013

CNC

Crack
N
Cocaine

Point of fact: you’re theory is horsechit, every male whitetail has one of the very same X chromosomes that doe carry 2 of. . Basic genetics. If the doe can carry the trait so can the buck. You’re welcome.

Does eat Corn Corn Corn bucks chase does. It’s easy.

When you look at that rut map you really have to keep in mind as well that you’re not looking at a complete picture……Only what they have been able to compile from the sites they’ve collected data from……It’s sorta like a blurry photo that’s comes into focus…..The DCNR has painted enough to see the pattern that’s forming.

You can tell me all you want to about x and Y chromosomes but when you look at what we KNOW to be happening on the ground……The idea that bucks influence rut timing cant be true or we wouldn’t see what we’re seeing……. The idea that bucks influence rut timing does not fit the model that we KNOW to be happening……What does fit the model quite nicely is that does alone dictate it.

"Don't try to understand em , just rope em, throw em and brand em."

Don't you have some tracking to do or worms to inventory?