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Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 398
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 398 |
The proposed changes have nothing to do with propagating the population of wild turkeys. It has far more to do with ‘spreading the wealth’. There are more hunters in the woods chasing turkeys in the Spring than any other time in history. And, if you will just do a minimal amount of research on all of the proponents of moving the Seasons back and reducing the bag limits for individual hunters, you will find that they have ALL freely expressed this. Beginning with the Covid Pandemic, more people flocked to the woods and waters than any other time documented. However, the harvest numbers remained the same. Gobbling activity did decrease on a lot of Public Land due to the sudden increase of hunting pressure, though. That info is collected through Autonomous Recording Units and is well documented if you know where to look. In order to capitalize on these new hunters (and license buyers) though, they need to have at least some limited success. It has been said for years by various Wildlife Researchers and other professionals that 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the turkeys. So, if you want more hunters to have success, you have to reduce the harvest by those 10%. This did not just come to the limelight. It has been lurking there for quite some time. However, it gained a tremendous amount of traction due to the influx of new hunters spawned by the Covid Crisis. So, appropriately, they are taking it and running with it!
Problem is, things just don’t really work that way in Nature. It is hard to build an excess. And, if habitat cannot support a turkey population, having too many next door would not matter anyway. There is a certain skillset required to consistently call in and kill mature gobblers. And, it is neither acquired overnight nor are all people capable of it. So, in my opinion, the theory is flawed.
I would also like to add my personal take on these changes. They primarily seem to be affecting Public Land hunters. As a wildlife professional, I agree 100% and warn everyone I can about the slippery slope we are now on. I see the future frameworks taking away from the seasoned, accomplished public land hunters in order for these new turkey hunters to have a better chance at killing a bird. The YouTubers have created a ton of new turkey hunters, especially on public land. As these new hunters don't have the experience the consistently take birds off public land, they will be all for any restriction that they think will help the population even though the restrictions aren't backed by science. You see these new hunters all over social media spouting Chamberlain's gospel as truth and shouting "the sky is falling!" when these same hunters haven't even been around long enough to see a turkey population cycle like they have always done naturally. By the way, when I say 'new hunter', i'm primarily referring to those who just started in the past 5 years or so. Social media has had a major influence on recruiting those in this time frame. Once opportunity is taken away, we won't get it back. When all the YouTubers and Instagrammers slowly start losing their public land hunting opportunities, its going to be partially their own damn fault.
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,735
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,735 |
I think Chamberlain is good guy who loves turkeys but has enjoyed the fame and limelight his research has brought him and he’s basking in it.
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 5,588
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 5,588 |
I think Chamberlain is good guy who loves turkeys but has enjoyed the fame and limelight his research has brought him and he’s basking in it.
Chamberlain is the Dr. Fauci of turkeys.
What you do today, you have to sleep with tonight.
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 995
6 point
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6 point
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 995 |
Deerhunt1988 is right on the money.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 19,237 Likes: 28
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 19,237 Likes: 28 |
Lol you help turkeys , carry a bag of ant poison with you when you go hunting
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 61 Likes: 1
spike
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spike
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 61 Likes: 1 |
One question I always have about the predation theory is how do we explain the past? According to early American reports, there were huge turkey populations recorded by early American settlers yet many more predators existed at that time as well. I believe Alabama was home to our current predators (minus the hogs) plus wolves, bears, mountain lions, ect. How did the turkeys thrive surrounded by more predators than today and no trapping at all? That’s easy. How many cement jungles and cities did they have then? It amazes me how people can’t see how our uncontrolled population growth and expansion will be the steady downfall of wildlife! “Carrying capacity” ever heard that? Guess what, that is what a piece of lands capacity is. Let’s use deer for example and say we have 100 acres that can hold one deer per 20 acres. 5 deer. Now we cut 40 acres of it to build some more houses for ourselves. Now we can have 3 deer. Overall a lot less in % based but the agencies preach were “at carrying capacity” and everyone thinks all is well! When overall it is not, it’s fancy wording that goes right over ppls heads, when their wildlife is diminishing. It’s kind of like evolution, it’s just slow and takes a long time to where you can’t hardly see it happen it’s so gradual. Our populations over time will overall steadily decline because there isn’t more land being made. It’s very simple! Look around you, I bet you have plenty places where “we use to hunt right there” is now a neighborhood. We are nothing more than an island that in habitat at sense is slowly sinking. There less and less left with habitat to support wildlife. You can see this out west too where you’d think it’s not an issue due to the huge swaths of open land. However it’s still happening, only so much of that land is useful to most wildlife, and the most useful “pretty” parts are being bought up and turned into small ranches for nice big houses with beautiful views. It’s critical winter habitat, them elk, deer, etc can’t live in 4’ of snow so they migrate down. However those winter grounds are shrinking on top of people wanting depredation permits to kill them for eating their hay, crops etc? They even building in animal overpasses on highways to try and help these animals migrate across the highways that get built. Whether we like it or not the reality is there isn’t an unlimited amount of land/habitat for everything to exist unimpacted.
Last edited by sasquatch1; 04/16/21 08:59 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,085 Likes: 7
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,085 Likes: 7 |
One question I always have about the predation theory is how do we explain the past? According to early American reports, there were huge turkey populations recorded by early American settlers yet many more predators existed at that time as well. I believe Alabama was home to our current predators (minus the hogs) plus wolves, bears, mountain lions, ect. How did the turkeys thrive surrounded by more predators than today and no trapping at all? That’s easy. How many cement jungles and cities did they have then? It amazes me how people can’t see how our uncontrolled population growth and expansion will be the steady downfall of wildlife! “Carrying capacity” ever heard that? Guess what, that is what a piece of lands capacity is. Let’s use deer for example and say we have 100 acres that can hold one deer per 20 acres. 5 deer. Now we cut 40 acres of it to build some more houses for ourselves. Now we can have 3 deer. Overall a lot less in % based but the agencies preach were “at carrying capacity” and everyone thinks all is well! When overall it is not, it’s fancy wording that goes right over ppls heads, when their wildlife is diminishing. It’s kind of like evolution, it’s just slow and takes a long time to where you can’t hardly see it happen it’s so gradual. Our populations over time will overall steadily decline because there isn’t more land being made. It’s very simple! Look around you, I bet you have plenty places where “we use to hunt right there” is now a neighborhood. We are nothing more than an island that in habitat at sense is slowly sinking. There less and less left with habitat to support wildlife. A few of us on here try to mention the people problem when this comes up. And our never ending obsession with buying the “next 40” out to “get away”.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,367 Likes: 75
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,367 Likes: 75 |
One question I always have about the predation theory is how do we explain the past? According to early American reports, there were huge turkey populations recorded by early American settlers yet many more predators existed at that time as well. I believe Alabama was home to our current predators (minus the hogs) plus wolves, bears, mountain lions, ect. How did the turkeys thrive surrounded by more predators than today and no trapping at all? That’s easy. How many cement jungles and cities did they have then? It amazes me how people can’t see how our uncontrolled population growth and expansion will be the steady downfall of wildlife! “Carrying capacity” ever heard that? Guess what, that is what a piece of lands capacity is. Let’s use deer for example and say we have 100 acres that can hold one deer per 20 acres. 5 deer. Now we cut 40 acres of it to build some more houses for ourselves. Now we can have 3 deer. Overall a lot less in % based but the agencies preach were “at carrying capacity” and everyone thinks all is well! When overall it is not, it’s fancy wording that goes right over ppls heads, when their wildlife is diminishing. It’s kind of like evolution, it’s just slow and takes a long time to where you can’t hardly see it happen it’s so gradual. Our populations over time will overall steadily decline because there isn’t more land being made. It’s very simple! Look around you, I bet you have plenty places where “we use to hunt right there” is now a neighborhood. We are nothing more than an island that in habitat at sense is slowly sinking. There less and less left with habitat to support wildlife. You got that right. We rode up on Redland road in Elmore county last weekend. Some of the prettiest and best hunting land I ever got to be on now has a school and several neighborhoods on it. So so does the surrounding area that was once part of a hunting club I was in back in the 80's. Jug Factory road was like stepping back in pioneer days but houses are everywhere up and down that road now. The land north of Jug Factory and Hwy. 14 was my favorite place to hunt but houses are all over it too. Kinda hated to see that. Dr. B
Last edited by bamaeyedoc; 04/16/21 09:03 AM.
AKA: “Dr. B”
Aldeer #121
8-3-2000
Proud alum of AUM, UAB, and UA
2023-2024 ALdeer Deer Contest Champions
2024-2025 ALdeer Deer Contest Champions
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 378
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 378 |
The proposed changes have nothing to do with propagating the population of wild turkeys. It has far more to do with ‘spreading the wealth’. There are more hunters in the woods chasing turkeys in the Spring than any other time in history. And, if you will just do a minimal amount of research on all of the proponents of moving the Seasons back and reducing the bag limits for individual hunters, you will find that they have ALL freely expressed this. Beginning with the Covid Pandemic, more people flocked to the woods and waters than any other time documented. However, the harvest numbers remained the same. Gobbling activity did decrease on a lot of Public Land due to the sudden increase of hunting pressure, though. That info is collected through Autonomous Recording Units and is well documented if you know where to look. In order to capitalize on these new hunters (and license buyers) though, they need to have at least some limited success. It has been said for years by various Wildlife Researchers and other professionals that 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the turkeys. So, if you want more hunters to have success, you have to reduce the harvest by those 10%. This did not just come to the limelight. It has been lurking there for quite some time. However, it gained a tremendous amount of traction due to the influx of new hunters spawned by the Covid Crisis. So, appropriately, they are taking it and running with it!
Problem is, things just don’t really work that way in Nature. It is hard to build an excess. And, if habitat cannot support a turkey population, having too many next door would not matter anyway. There is a certain skillset required to consistently call in and kill mature gobblers. And, it is neither acquired overnight nor are all people capable of it. So, in my opinion, the theory is flawed.
I would also like to add my personal take on these changes. They primarily seem to be affecting Public Land hunters. As a wildlife professional, I agree 100% and warn everyone I can about the slippery slope we are now on. I see the future frameworks taking away from the seasoned, accomplished public land hunters in order for these new turkey hunters to have a better chance at killing a bird. The YouTubers have created a ton of new turkey hunters, especially on public land. As these new hunters don't have the experience the consistently take birds off public land, they will be all for any restriction that they think will help the population even though the restrictions aren't backed by science. You see these new hunters all over social media spouting Chamberlain's gospel as truth and shouting "the sky is falling!" when these same hunters haven't even been around long enough to see a turkey population cycle like they have always done naturally. By the way, when I say 'new hunter', i'm primarily referring to those who just started in the past 5 years or so. Social media has had a major influence on recruiting those in this time frame. Once opportunity is taken away, we won't get it back. When all the YouTubers and Instagrammers slowly start losing their public land hunting opportunities, its going to be partially their own damn fault. So you're saying that the decline in population throughout the southeast is due to a population cycle and that there will be a rise in population soon? When could one expect this rise?
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 61 Likes: 1
spike
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spike
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 61 Likes: 1 |
One question I always have about the predation theory is how do we explain the past? According to early American reports, there were huge turkey populations recorded by early American settlers yet many more predators existed at that time as well. I believe Alabama was home to our current predators (minus the hogs) plus wolves, bears, mountain lions, ect. How did the turkeys thrive surrounded by more predators than today and no trapping at all? That’s easy. How many cement jungles and cities did they have then? It amazes me how people can’t see how our uncontrolled population growth and expansion will be the steady downfall of wildlife! “Carrying capacity” ever heard that? Guess what, that is what a piece of lands capacity is. Let’s use deer for example and say we have 100 acres that can hold one deer per 20 acres. 5 deer. Now we cut 40 acres of it to build some more houses for ourselves. Now we can have 3 deer. Overall a lot less in % based but the agencies preach were “at carrying capacity” and everyone thinks all is well! When overall it is not, it’s fancy wording that goes right over ppls heads, when their wildlife is diminishing. It’s kind of like evolution, it’s just slow and takes a long time to where you can’t hardly see it happen it’s so gradual. Our populations over time will overall steadily decline because there isn’t more land being made. It’s very simple! Look around you, I bet you have plenty places where “we use to hunt right there” is now a neighborhood. We are nothing more than an island that in habitat at sense is slowly sinking. There less and less left with habitat to support wildlife. You got that right. We rode up on Redland road in Elmore county last weekend. Some of the prettiest and best hunting land I ever got to be on now has a school and several neighborhoods on it. So so does the surrounding area that was once part of a hunting club I was in back in the 80's. Jug Factory road was like stepping back in pioneer days but houses are everywhere up and down that road now. The land north of Jug Factory and Hwy. 14 was my favorite place to hunt but houses are all over it too. Kinda hated to see that. Dr. B Yep, there’s no end in sight either. And we have the nerve to talk about how destructive things like beavers are!!! 😂 how ironic.
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 398
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 398 |
The proposed changes have nothing to do with propagating the population of wild turkeys. It has far more to do with ‘spreading the wealth’. There are more hunters in the woods chasing turkeys in the Spring than any other time in history. And, if you will just do a minimal amount of research on all of the proponents of moving the Seasons back and reducing the bag limits for individual hunters, you will find that they have ALL freely expressed this. Beginning with the Covid Pandemic, more people flocked to the woods and waters than any other time documented. However, the harvest numbers remained the same. Gobbling activity did decrease on a lot of Public Land due to the sudden increase of hunting pressure, though. That info is collected through Autonomous Recording Units and is well documented if you know where to look. In order to capitalize on these new hunters (and license buyers) though, they need to have at least some limited success. It has been said for years by various Wildlife Researchers and other professionals that 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the turkeys. So, if you want more hunters to have success, you have to reduce the harvest by those 10%. This did not just come to the limelight. It has been lurking there for quite some time. However, it gained a tremendous amount of traction due to the influx of new hunters spawned by the Covid Crisis. So, appropriately, they are taking it and running with it!
Problem is, things just don’t really work that way in Nature. It is hard to build an excess. And, if habitat cannot support a turkey population, having too many next door would not matter anyway. There is a certain skillset required to consistently call in and kill mature gobblers. And, it is neither acquired overnight nor are all people capable of it. So, in my opinion, the theory is flawed.
I would also like to add my personal take on these changes. They primarily seem to be affecting Public Land hunters. As a wildlife professional, I agree 100% and warn everyone I can about the slippery slope we are now on. I see the future frameworks taking away from the seasoned, accomplished public land hunters in order for these new turkey hunters to have a better chance at killing a bird. The YouTubers have created a ton of new turkey hunters, especially on public land. As these new hunters don't have the experience the consistently take birds off public land, they will be all for any restriction that they think will help the population even though the restrictions aren't backed by science. You see these new hunters all over social media spouting Chamberlain's gospel as truth and shouting "the sky is falling!" when these same hunters haven't even been around long enough to see a turkey population cycle like they have always done naturally. By the way, when I say 'new hunter', i'm primarily referring to those who just started in the past 5 years or so. Social media has had a major influence on recruiting those in this time frame. Once opportunity is taken away, we won't get it back. When all the YouTubers and Instagrammers slowly start losing their public land hunting opportunities, its going to be partially their own damn fault. So you're saying that the decline in population throughout the southeast is due to a population cycle and that there will be a rise in population soon? When could one expect this rise? No, I'm saying it is natural for turkey populations to cycle. Last year we had a ton of 2-year olds. I knew 2020 was going to be a great season for multiple southeast states due to brood surveys and jake harvests (2019). I knew 2021 would see lower harvest numbers due to brood surveys and crappy carryover from COVID pressure. A lot of newer hunters who had good times last year are the same ones shouting "THE SKY IS FALLING" now just a year later. But that is just a short-term cycle. There are longer-scale ups and downs as well. This happens on both localized and regional levels. The southeast definitely has a myriad of issues and I'm fairly certain we will never see the turkey numbers we once saw. I'm afraid our future 'rises' will continue to be smaller and smaller. Public land hunting quality will continue to get worse as long as our public lands continue to be pimped out. I got an e-mail from today from AL basically sponsoring The Hunting Public. TWRA sponsors them as well. So two state agencies that have some of the heaviest pressured WMAs in the entire US are pimping them out to try and rake in more of that $$ . Now if the money went to turkey or purchasing more public lands, I wouldn't have much of an issue with it. But that money goes into the wildlife general fund where there is no telling where it will be spent. Remember, deer brings in a lot more $$ than turkey.
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 378
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 378 |
The proposed changes have nothing to do with propagating the population of wild turkeys. It has far more to do with ‘spreading the wealth’. There are more hunters in the woods chasing turkeys in the Spring than any other time in history. And, if you will just do a minimal amount of research on all of the proponents of moving the Seasons back and reducing the bag limits for individual hunters, you will find that they have ALL freely expressed this. Beginning with the Covid Pandemic, more people flocked to the woods and waters than any other time documented. However, the harvest numbers remained the same. Gobbling activity did decrease on a lot of Public Land due to the sudden increase of hunting pressure, though. That info is collected through Autonomous Recording Units and is well documented if you know where to look. In order to capitalize on these new hunters (and license buyers) though, they need to have at least some limited success. It has been said for years by various Wildlife Researchers and other professionals that 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the turkeys. So, if you want more hunters to have success, you have to reduce the harvest by those 10%. This did not just come to the limelight. It has been lurking there for quite some time. However, it gained a tremendous amount of traction due to the influx of new hunters spawned by the Covid Crisis. So, appropriately, they are taking it and running with it!
Problem is, things just don’t really work that way in Nature. It is hard to build an excess. And, if habitat cannot support a turkey population, having too many next door would not matter anyway. There is a certain skillset required to consistently call in and kill mature gobblers. And, it is neither acquired overnight nor are all people capable of it. So, in my opinion, the theory is flawed.
I would also like to add my personal take on these changes. They primarily seem to be affecting Public Land hunters. As a wildlife professional, I agree 100% and warn everyone I can about the slippery slope we are now on. I see the future frameworks taking away from the seasoned, accomplished public land hunters in order for these new turkey hunters to have a better chance at killing a bird. The YouTubers have created a ton of new turkey hunters, especially on public land. As these new hunters don't have the experience the consistently take birds off public land, they will be all for any restriction that they think will help the population even though the restrictions aren't backed by science. You see these new hunters all over social media spouting Chamberlain's gospel as truth and shouting "the sky is falling!" when these same hunters haven't even been around long enough to see a turkey population cycle like they have always done naturally. By the way, when I say 'new hunter', i'm primarily referring to those who just started in the past 5 years or so. Social media has had a major influence on recruiting those in this time frame. Once opportunity is taken away, we won't get it back. When all the YouTubers and Instagrammers slowly start losing their public land hunting opportunities, its going to be partially their own damn fault. So you're saying that the decline in population throughout the southeast is due to a population cycle and that there will be a rise in population soon? When could one expect this rise? No, I'm saying it is natural for turkey populations to cycle. Last year we had a ton of 2-year olds. I knew 2020 was going to be a great season for multiple southeast states due to brood surveys and jake harvests (2019). I knew 2021 would see lower harvest numbers due to brood surveys and crappy carryover from COVID pressure. A lot of newer hunters who had good times last year are the same ones shouting "THE SKY IS FALLING" now just a year later. But that is just a short-term cycle. There are longer-scale ups and downs as well. This happens on both localized and regional levels. The southeast definitely has a myriad of issues and I'm fairly certain we will never see the turkey numbers we once saw. I'm afraid our future 'rises' will continue to be smaller and smaller. Public land hunting quality will continue to get worse as long as our public lands continue to be pimped out. I got an e-mail from today from AL basically sponsoring The Hunting Public. TWRA sponsors them as well. So two state agencies that have some of the heaviest pressured WMAs in the entire US are pimping them out to try and rake in more of that $$ . Now if the money went to turkey or purchasing more public lands, I wouldn't have much of an issue with it. But that money goes into the wildlife general fund where there is no telling where it will be spent. Remember, deer brings in a lot more $$ than turkey. Thanks for the clarification! I agree with you. I'd really like to know what kind of kick back THP gets from TWRA.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 14,346 Likes: 65
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 14,346 Likes: 65 |
It’s common knowledge that rabbits cycle from great years to lean years (around 7 years), but I’ve never heard of turkeys doing that. Only common theme I’ve noticed hunting the same area for 40 years is that some areas have always had turkeys and some areas very rarely do. Clearcuts will change that unless there’s an abundance of smz’s to hold oaks, populars and big roosting trees.
I think a 3 bird limit would spread the wealth, but it’s still useless without enforcement. Too many people poaching, hunting early, killing over the limit. It’s a running joke that you’re stuck on your 4th bird you know....
Last edited by globe; 04/16/21 03:43 PM.
Everything woke turns to shucks
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