Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum Cull no Cull, not this again, shut the freak up

Do you think it might have been some kind of environmental situation that caused the bucks to have weaker antlers and therefore more prone to pedicle damage? I think some of these situations where something is obviously going on that gets blamed on genetics is being caused by something environmental that's being overlooked

The property we hunted was in the Chance-Lower Peach Tree area and there is a member on here who owns it now. I just don't remember who has it. The only thing ever done to this place was the cutting of trees off it when we leased it. You went back in time when you got there it was so remote. Alligators, hogs, you name it, they called it home and we were visitors there.

There were plenty of oak trees and plenty for the deer to eat. We just all assumed it was genetic and dropped the lease after one year. There was not a single deer killed there that had a matching rack. One side always had a spike, and only a few of the spikes even had a curve to them. There were racks left on the well supports there that were the same as we killed that had been left by other hunters before us. Maybe the member that has the tract now will chime in and let us know what it's like now.

When we hunted it, I was big into bow hunting and I didn't have much of a cull factor. I killed a couple of truckloads of deer off it that one year. I also killed two hogs that were published in the magazine AL Game and Fish in their camera corner feature. They were the largest hogs I have ever seen in the wild. Everything else grew there like it was supposed to. The deer just didn't grow a matching rack. I really believe it was the genetics at play messing them up.

I started hunting our family land about 30 years ago and there were a lot of SOOS bucks in there. I started shooting every one I could get the crosshairs on. I havn't seen one in 5 or so years, but if I do I'll shoot him. Not a scientific approach that some of ya'll have, but if they are dead they aren't breeding.

But here's the thing when saying it's genetic. Those bucks your talking about we're most likely not born on that property. The vast majority of then anyways. They came there as a dispersing yesrling from othother surrounding properties . It varies according to habitat but you're likely talking about the possibility of the young dispersing yeslrings coming from any property within say 3-5 miles in any direction. You get a mived bag of young ones each year that could come from any and all of those properties. You might as well put all of them within that radius into a lottery bin and draw them out like Powerball. What are the chances then to draw out only soos bucks for your property?

We share same science, here are 2 that lost breeding privileges

like this approach

I see this point. Makes it look a lot more of a bleak situation. I mean its almost as if there is nothing you can do about it ever... Only thing you can do is eliminate the SOOS deer in the cross hairs to keep him from reproducing.

Good to see you back on here CNC!

Thanks!....Hunting season is over now and its been boring as hell with all the rain.

So let me say upfront that getting into the finer details of genetics is not something that I’ve researched and studied on very much........so take this next comment with a grain of salt and hopefully if I’m a little off with what I’m saying someone with a better understanding with clean it up……

There’s a difference in a deer “carrying” a gene versus a deer “expressing” a gene. Think about if we were looking at a dogs paperwork and its pedigree. Is the only thing effecting the traits of that dog simply the ones seen from the mom and dad? No its not……There’s a lineage behind those two that branches out over and over with different dogs with different possibilities for characteristics. It may be that the current dog we’re looking at is far more similar in appearance to his grandfather than his father……How many people have you seen that were the spitting image of an ancestor and looked for more like them than their immediate parents? This is because of the genes that are being expressed. They’re still carrying the genes for the other ones that may be passed on and express themselves in the next generation. With dogs there has been a intense controlled breeding that has taken place in order to produce a lineage of dogs all with standards and desired characteristics such as great hunting drive for example…..But with something like wild deer herds, the lineage is gonna be a completely random mix of this and that. So those genes from that cull deer are still in the lineage being passed on through other deer…..It will still express itself in future generations no matter if you shoot everyone you see.

Now I may be a little off on that……I really hope someone with help out here because I’m wanting to hear how this works if I’m off on what I’ve said.

Y'all read this. Very interesting. In my opinion it sums up the cull myth.

https://www.qdma.com/spike-one-side-genetics-injury/

From the article - Harvesting SOOS bucks does nothing to improve the genetic quality of a deer population.

Author was Dr. Gabe Karns, who earned his Ph.D. in wildlife sciences at Auburn University and his master’s degree from North Carolina State University.

I wonder if he was a part o the QDMA bunch that came up with "shoot does, shoot does, shoot all the damn does" brilliant idea?

Dr. Gabe is a pretty young guy, he wasn't even born or was very young when QDMA ran out on the shoot does limb.

You mean dominate and recessive? Mendel's studies and outcomes were pretty interesting.

This is the reality, sometimes we act like the doe has nothing to do with genetics. If for no other reason that that, the idea of "culling" bucks with "undesirable" racks is foolishness.
And for me personally, I love the character of those "goofy" racks when they get old and big. It's really boring if all you have is slick 8's.

That half baked "study" was thoroughly discussed and analyzed here when it came out many years ago.

It was only a very small cursory look at the SOOS phenomenah, was not any kind of thorough comprehensive and scientific study whatsoever, and it was completely INCONCLUSIVE. As a matter of fact the cursory short "study" did not find any explanations for about 50% of the FEW SOOS antlers they looked at.

The "study" was more social politics then anything.

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Bottom line is that if hunters can high grade a deer herd and mess it up by doing so, ipso facto, hunters can low grade a deer herd and improve a deer herd. That is what animal husbandry has been doing with farm animals for 10,000 years.

I would recommend that all hunters everywhere kill all SOOS on sight, and also low grade kill all their crap 2s and 3s.
Let all your best 2s and 3s walk and let them get to full maturity.

Certainly not trying to say that it was all handled properly but that's not a true way of describing what took place. The information that QDMA presented to the public on things like carrying capacity and buck to doe ratio was sound and correct. The problem occurred because most hunters did not have a complete understanding of when and where it needed to be applied. Nothing was really taught about how to assess your individual situation and better yet it was never presented as there being a wide range in what is acceptable. There's no one "just right" density or level of carrying capacity that has to be managed for. The worst part of the situation was that only a small percentage of properties were even remotely close to overpopulation. Hunters misunderstood the info and ran with it. There are still ffolks that shoot does just because they think it's just what you do to manage deer on any given club or property....with no understanding of if they really do need to or what kind of population they could manage for. QDMA did not teach to just shoot every doe without reason. I will concede that there was some bad info given through opinions when making the claim that most folks wouldn't be able to kill to many. That statement just didn't take into consideration the impact of coyotes thst would soon be realized

Those look like Kemper County, Mississippi deer, whole dang herd is messed up.

I think this is something a little different. I think it was BSK maybe that I remember discussing this part of its and someone else has as well since then but I forget who. I'm just about positive that they used the same terms on how genes were "carried" and "expressed".....I just don't recall everything that was talked about. Its easy to thing about a pedigree chart though and see that the deer you consider to be the trophy may have very well had numerous grandfathers with inferior traits and vice versa the one you're shooting as a cull thinking its getting the gene out of the pool could have had some one fiddy's in his lineage. What is passed down to the next generation does not all hinge on simply the current mother and father and it certainly isn't gonna have an impact just manipulating one of them. People will believe what they want to believe anyways though just because that's how they make sense of it. This is a prime example of one of the biggest issues we have in this state. Most of us don't know anymore about genetics that we do brain surgery. Yet folks will still form an opinion based off of nothing more than what seems right to them and then close off their minds to any other possibility. Many of the problems that clubs and such have are because many of the folks in them and running them don't have much of a true understanding of the truth and only know it from the perspective of what's been passed around the campfire over the years. It doesn't matter that universities have research facilities dedicated to finding out the science behind all of the finer details....someone will still believe the rut came early this year just because that's what they saw by God. A more open minded approach and a little room for the possibility that your opinion may be wrong would go a long ways toward learning and knowing the truth

What was the buck to doe ratio that QDMA presented are you referring to?

Both parents have to have the recessive gene for it to show up, though.

But, I have great news for you. I'll shot every "boring" 130"+ 8 point that you have on your place so you don't have to look at them. You're welcome.