Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum Disputing a Deer baiting Citation - A Little Help?

I'm new to the site and new to this State, but I hope I can get some insight from those of you that have been around for a while.

Let me start by saying that I now have a full and complete understanding of hunting regulations within Alabama. I also accept full responsibility for this mess, and I can honestly say that I had no intention to break the law - I was simply ignorant of the law. The problem is I got a completely innocent person cited.

Three months ago I purchased 40 acres situated between two corn fields. It's a nice spot and we intend to build our last home there in about five years. I purchased a protein block at WalMart and placed it along the wood line of the food plot my son and I planted.

I invited a friend to hunt that stand while my son and I hunted from a stand on the other side of the property. It was this mans very first day hunting in his life. It looks like my neighbor to the East reported the violation and the Warden walked up on my friend and cited him for hunting over bait. I am asking him to fight the citation and have offered to pay half of the legal fees wether he wins or losses. I think he's decided to fight it.

So here is the situation: I am the one who placed that bait on the ground - not him. I never told him that I had placed bait in his area, because I was too stupid to understand it was bait. He walked up to the stand in the dark and began hunting. The block was a protein block, brown in color, and would look like an old stump (from a distance of 10 yards) to any reasonable person. He didn't even know what the Warden was looking at when the Warden walked to the exact spot and called him over. So, he did not and could not have known the area was baited.

He is looking like he will go to trial. I will be called as a witness and testify to the facts mentioned above - even if it means I will then be cited. Its just the right thing to do.

My question is: Can anyone on this Forum speak from direct experience with respect to defending against a criminal violation of deer baiting. If you have either settle with the DA prior to trial, or you have gone toe-to-toe with the DA in the court room, please talk about your experience.

I screwed this up. I am not asking for lectures as to how stupid I am. I already got that from my wife.

The Alabama Supreme court retuned a decision regarding this very matter in

PHILLIPS v. State).
Ex parte W.A. PHILLIPS. (Re W.A. Phillips v. State).
1981083. March 10, 2000

The case against Phillip was dismissed and is summarized here:

"Because we conclude that a conviction under � 9-11-244 requires a showing that the defendant either knew or should have known that the area over which he was hunting was baited, the trial court erred in instructing the jury that Phillips could be found guilty even without proof that he baited the field or knew that the field was baited.   Therefore, we remand this case for further proceedings consistent with this opinion."



--

I hate that for you. Hopefully BhamFred (Troy) will chime in on this one. If not, send him a PM. Troy is a retired GW and salt of the earth. He'll probably tell you it was stupid of you but he also is very level headed and hopefully offer you some advice. Good luck.

A few members here a lawyers, but most are not.

You need a lawyer for this.

I'll be glad to talk to your lawyer about some of the things that have happened since Phillips v State concerning the hunting over bait statute.

The state issues depredation permits to hunt over bait instead of opening or extending hunting seasons like the law requires.

Hunting over salt is allowed even thought the language of the satute prohibits it. Hunting over Trophy Rock brand salt in particular is expressly condoned in DCNR literature.

Bills that have failed have been filed in the legislature to try to define the vague term "area" in the statute's language.

Bills that have failed have been filed in the legislature to allow hunting deer over bait.

The CAB has entertained motions that have failed to define the vague term "area" in the baiting statute. The minutes of CAB meetings reflect the difficulty in defining the word "area" as it applies to the statute.

There is currently a committee report posted on the DCNR webpage that explores the question of legalizing baiting in our state. Here's a link to the report:

Deer baiting committee report - link here

Last year, a state sponsored dove hunt was shut down by a federal officer due to the vagueness of baiting regulations. The Department leaders were called in, and the hunt was eventually cancelled even though they contended the field was legal to hunt over.

I don't condone hunting over bait, but our state has been very hypocritical in it's enforcement or lack therof of the statute. It refuses to eliminate the vagueness in defining the "area" affected by the bait.

PM me if you need me to share what I know with your lawyer.

No offense 49er but if his attorney needs to talk to you he probably doesn't have a very good attorney. 49er is correct that there are a few lawyers on here, doekiller is a defense attorney. 49er is not one. He failed to mention that. He just complains about most any hunting law brought up on here. I know this is going to tick you off 49er, and I'm sorry for that. This man needs an expert though. Not someone with an axe to grind.

I agree with all of your post, except the above sentence. He complains about every hunting law, not most any......

Here we go!

See ya in 10 min.

I don't care if his lawyer talks to you. The man has his ox in a ditch though and needs SOUND advice. I just pointed out that you are not an expert, though you try to portray yourself as one, and he and his attorney would more than likely be wasting time he doesn't have. That's all I'm going to say about this because I'm not going to turn this into a thread about 49er instead of the person that started it.

Don't stop, I need something to entertain me besides these darned armadillos

I would not brush aside 49er's offer so lightly. Say what you will about his agenda with the CAB he still seems to have a very thorough understanding of the laws and how they have been ruled on in the past. Just because he didn't go to law school doesn't mean he can not be helpful in this situation.

A good attorney probably would entertain any possible insight to things that might help his case.

49er might well indeed be able to point out a thing or two regarding this situation with TGray.

TGray, you definitely need to get a legitimate, bonafide attorney if your friend plans to fight this. The Phillips case certainly appears to be precedent for this situation, as you explained it here.

Keep us updated and good luck.

Clem, the problem with most attorneys is that they know little about hunting laws and regs, why they were passed, and how they are enforced.

TGray, ya screwed up, but you already know that.

The best defense your buddy has is that it was his first trip, and he didn't know about the bait. You didn't tell him because you didn't think it was bait.

The "knew or should of known" part of the Phillips ruling may be a problem for him...the should of known part. Basically the court says one should look around your stand to see if there is any bait before hunting. That dosen't mean you should scour the woods for 100 yards around your stand. But it being that the bait was 10 yards from the stand the GW is going to contend that he "should of known", should of seen it.

Ignorance of what is bait is not a defense, but not knowing it was there is....

troy

Agreed on your first sentence, Fred.

If a guy never has been hunting before, how is he going to know or not know what "bait" looks like or is? If he doesn't even know what it is or looks like, how would he know that it was somewhere nearby?

agree Clem, but ignorance of the laws/regs is not a defense. Kinda like saying you didn't know you had to actually give a turn signal before changing lanes....

He would most likely lose the case in court. Not knowing it was there was the defense used in most of the baiting cases. Judges have heard it a 1000 times. Unfortunately, most of the time the defendant is probably lying and it will cost your friend.

A good attorney will also give you the practical option. He will tell you that he may beat the case in court, but his fees will be much more than the fine.

Since you readily admit it was all your fault, which by the way makes you a stand up guy who has my respect, call the court clerk and see if it can be paid without a court appearance. If it is and it is reasonable, just pay it for him and save the attorney fees.

If it requires a court appearnace, get your friend to call the D.A. and work something out. In the grand scheme of things for their office this is relatively minor. They should be glad to work it out with a modest fine and let it go at that.

Another option is for him to defend himself. It isn't a big deal and you make a compelling case for some sympathy. It isn't that hard, it's just like traffic court. Don't try to get too fancy. All you need is the truth and your court case. Present it to the judge and see what he says. Unless ya'll are butts he probably won't make the fine more than it normally is even if he finds him guilty.

Did the hunter know, did he look, did he ask? If answer is yes to knowing, obviously guilty. If no to either of the other he is guilty. Those are the three questions that matter in court.

Fellas,

For those of you that have looked in on this post in general, Thanks. For those of you that have looked in on this and replied specifically, Thanks a Ton. Let me clarify a few points.

The bait was actually about 70 yards from the stand. From that distance (and from about 10 yards) it would certainly appear to be a stump to anyone.

My buddy is putting a lawyer on retainer. But I feel like this is just like traffic court (and the state sure seems to see it as such) so I really just think we can tell the truth to the judge and let the chips fall. What the judge may not have seen before is a dude that will stand there and say, 'This is not his fault. This is all me. I'm a dick".

Finally, Thanks to all of you for not making me feel like a compete Jackass. Its one of the reasons we'll make this state our home.

You sound like a stand up kind of guy and I hope to hear more from you on here. Let us know how it goes.

Trust me, if you had not handled this like a standup guy, we would've been on you like stink on poop.

Keep us informed.

Just went back and read your original post again. To me the bigger problem here is that your new neighbor turned you in. If that is, in fact, what happened then I would want to know how he knew about the mineral block. Can it be easily seen from his side of the property line? If not, has he been trespassing? Something to think about.

He has every right to report you for baiting. I probably would myself if I knew my neighbor was hunting over a feeder full of corn. But I don't think I would make a big deal out of a mineral block. Just my thoughts.