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Better nutrition?

There's more nutrition in Missouri -- rocky, hilly, not as much agriculture -- than in Alabama with lots of mixed woodlands, bottoms, bugs, agriculture and native habitat?

Don't get me wrong, I do not discount the importance of Nutrition, I have seen what better nutrition can do even for Southern Alabama deer. However I do not think you could take a South AL deer to Saskatchewan and turn him into a 300 pound monster. Conversely, I think a typical Saskatchewan deer would grow to about the same size in Alabama. They are just different animals.

I think it is more about the subspecies....just like Turkeys.

Speaking of agriculture, I have seen studies that said a large portion of any deers diet consists of natural browse.

Missouri ranked nationally 5th in rice, 6th in soybeans and cotton, 8th in grain sorghum and 9th
in corn production in 2009.

This is correct. Its a proven Biological Fact! Look at it this way. Have you ever seen a tall skinny escimo, or a short fat ethiopian? All about the surface area to volume ratio.

I think it depends on location. Here in Alabama I would agree. In place I have seen in Indiana and Kansas, the land is 80% crops and open pasture and about 20% woods if that. The only woods left are what they can plant on. These wooded bottoms become a travel and bedding areas for the deer. Some of the deer trails in these area look like cattle crossing because it is the only cover they have to move around in. I can't see these small area sustaining a large portion of there diet. I think in these type area they have to depend highly on the crops that are planted.

That may be true. But there are also areas that have more protein content in that natural browse.

Plant protein content is directly proportional to soil nitrogen content. Soil nitrogen leaching and nitrogen runoff occurs in higher rainfall areas as opposed to snowfall areas. It also depends on soil type, to an extent.

Also, the higher Calcium (lime) content of soil allows plants to uptake nutrients more efficiently. Which partly explains the Black Belt deer theory. It is higher in Calcium.

That, along with genetics are key, I'm guessing.

Proven? Where?

Shuter just posted a biological report from Canada saying Bergman's is invalid.

So, is it invalid or does your questionable Eskimo-Ethiopian theory hold water?

Giraffes are close to the equator. They're gigantic.

Elephants are close to the equator. They're enormous.

Dik-Diks are close to the equator. They're so small they could be crammed in an overhead bag for airline travel.

Why aren't penguins the size of cows? They're at the poles and must combat the weather. Bergman's would, theoretically, mean we would have penguins that look like NFL linebackers.

That could be attribted to genetics also. And yes, I have seen thin eskimos.

Take man-induced agriculture out of it for now!!!

I believe that different geographic areas have different sub-species of deer. Through evolution, the further north you go, the bigger the animals. A Saskatchewan deer needs more body mass to survive the winters than does the Florida Key deer. Ruts are earlier in the North than they are in the South; by design (or evolution) as fawns need more time to put on weight before the winter hits.

Let's look at the soil of, say, the Midwest. I read somewhere where the Midwest's soil is "younger" (as in millions of years) than our soil here in the South. I can't expound on that but it has something to do with glacier movements and soil leeching, etc... Maybe someone can expound on this subject.

I don't have any advanced knowledge about soil and ag practices but any of us that have seen the color of the Midwestern soils can attest to its black color and read about its nutrient enriched soil characteristics.

Now let's throw in agriculture in the Midwest where thousands upon thousands of acres are planted with beneficial cultivars which feeds the deer herd there. Eating soybeans all summer long with high protein content obviously makes a difference. Packing on fat with carbohydrates (corn) in the fall helps the deer herd come through the winter in better shape and therefore, the deer do not have to "recover" as much when the green-up occurs.

So, in the Midwest, you're already working with a larger subspecies of deer... throw in highly nutritious agriculture and it's obvious what has occurred. Also, natural browse is higher in protein content in the Midwest as well.

The bottom line is it's nutrition, nutrition, nutrition and we saw it here in Alabama back when soybeans were grown. However, on average, other deer subspecies to the north of us are naturally bigger and couple that with nutrition, you have big deer/big antlered bucks!

Genetics play a big role too but I believe it's more about diet.

Look at the kids today coming out of high school! How many 300 lb linemen do we see now as compared to yesteryear? However, I think that may be the hormones in the chicken and beef kids eat today.

Anyway, my thoughts....

Oh, one more comment... I believe if you brought a Saskatchewan buck down here and artificially provided the same diet he'd get in S'wan, or maybe even less nutrition, he'd grow just as big down here. However, you'd have to "baby" the buck and probably have to isolate the buck away from other deer and probably have to administer antibiotics as he'd be exposed to new diseases, etc... he would not have to face up there. In the wild, I do not believe a S'wan deer would survive down here for many reasons.

Yep.

Evolution or adaption?

or like Clem.......

True ... big, fat, poor feet, ample belly and hairy coat.

Bergmann's rule applies within species...not across species.

The rut is not earlier in the north than in the south. October on the coast of GA. July/august in the everglades.

Hey jlccoffee, I looked up some info on the Internet and everything I could find about the Key deer said fall rutting occurs b/w Sept - Nov, which is earlier than I'd thought anyway. i didn't look at the coast of Ga. I looked at Saskatchewan and its rut is the first or middle of Nov. according to a few websites.

I do agree that the ruts vary and maybe not that different by region of the country per se but I kinda feel confident that in December and January, Midwestern bucks are not rutting and there have been several incidents where a buck was killed in late season in the M'west and the buck's antlers pulled off when the hunter grabbed them to load the dead buck in the truck.

I do know that in Alabama, we have a varied rut depending on location; I suppose depending from what location in the country the deer herd was stocked from. I do know that we have, in places (Alabama), rutting bucks in Feb and into the first of March but that may be more driven on out of whack sex ratios.

It's an interesting topic!

Bucktrot here is pretty good break down of the rut across the county. Of course the dates vary slightly from year to year, but a majority of the countries rut is in Nov, while the southeast varies state by state and even county by county in side of the state.

http://mathewsinc.com/21443/as-reliable-...ss-the-country/

Look a little farther north. I'm not talking about the key deer but in the everglades. Florida has a map posted on line but I don't have time to find it this afternoon. Search for Florida mean conception dates map or something like that.

Georgia is in October along the coast...especially on the barrier islands. I have hunted Sapelo island several times and always try to get the October hunts.

Killed a buck chasing a doe within sight of a scrape one day when the heat index was 107 degrees.