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Joined: May 2006
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10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,615 |
If i get one a year i am happy i dont need to kill 5 , i understand some people live for it and i have no problem with it . I feel like predators are more detremental to lost turkey population than hunters are , i know if you kill 5 well thats 5 less than you had but God provides enough wildlife to replace what we harvest but we do need to manage what we have .
I personally am worried more about coyotes i would rather find more ways to get rid of them than anything else , they are a big problem and kill way more deer and turkey than people realize .
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 885
6 point
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6 point
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 885 |
Matt Brock, thanks for all that you do. We can argue all we want, but having biologists who care about wildlife and work to satisfy both environmental and recreational needs is truly great. Thanks for all that you do. I for one am curious if turkey numbers or poult recruitment has dropped much in East/central AL. I did not see nearly as many birds during deer season this year, but have seen/heard more than ever this spring. Thanks.
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Joined: Dec 2013
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6 point
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6 point
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 886 |
If i get one a year i am happy i dont need to kill 5 , i understand some people live for it and i have no problem with it . I feel like predators are more detremental to lost turkey population than hunters are , i know if you kill 5 well thats 5 less than you had but God provides enough wildlife to replace what we harvest but we do need to manage what we have .
I personally am worried more about coyotes i would rather find more ways to get rid of them than anything else , they are a big problem and kill way more deer and turkey than people realize . Amen. Agree 1000%.
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Matt Brock
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Matt Brock
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Everybody wants to throw coyotes under the bus, but they are nowhere near the top of the list on adult or poult mortality. Do they catch turkeys? Yes. Do they get as many as raccoons, opossums, skunks, bobcats, and feral domestic dogs? Not according to what we know.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,263 Likes: 18
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,263 Likes: 18 |
Yet few folks want to truly commit to a hardcore year-round trapping program for all predators including hogs for a variety of reasons, including "we don't want anyone on our property" and "we like to shoot a hog now and then during deer season."
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,998 Likes: 2
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,998 Likes: 2 |
A somehwhat related side topic question, is it true that less than 50% of turkey eggs actually hatch, then around 80% die after the first two weeks? Because if that's true, it's a wonder I ever see a wild turkey!
Scientist and Author, Fly Fishing for Redeye Bass: An Adventure Across Southern Waters and Alabama's Best Fly Fishing
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"I do not hunt turkeys because I want to, I hunt them because I have to." - Tom Kelly
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Joined: Dec 2013
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6 point
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6 point
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 886 |
According to SEAFWA, they claim several researchers have found that opening of spring season prior to initiation of nesting can lead to reduced recruitment through direct mortality of female wild turkeys.
Also, intensive male turkey harvest during spring could result in decreased recruitment if it occurs prior to nest initiation and has resulted in low male turkey abundance or disturbed breeding activity.
How's that Bankhead? Am I just making facts up in an office, because you know that's what all biologist do right? Matt I didn't throw this at you and I'm sorry you took it that way. Its the according to folks and the might and could be people. I do know this,predators are a big problem and I'll always preach that. The best gobblin bird I been on back and forth throughout the season got spooked off yesterday morning. 2 coyotes came running/sneaking up on me right when I had him bout ready to pull the trigger. 1 of those yotes is in bad shape from 6s right in the face. Maybe it will kill him. Again, didn't mean to make it sound like you was at fault in any. You do your part because you care for wildlife and resources.
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Matt Brock
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Matt Brock
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Sorry Bankhead. I took it that way. I apologize.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,378 Likes: 10
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,378 Likes: 10 |
For both PCP and Gobbler, what would you think if AU(not MSState), since you like throwing that in there, provided a scenario through a mathematical formula that included season lengths, different bags, real hunter mortality, real poult recruitment, real incidental hen harvest, real natural mortality, real hunter satisfaction, and predicted the population growth or decline over decades for each scenario, AND the results that were scientifically predicted suggested that a change in bag limits or season structure was needed? I throw in the term real data, meaning it was collected in AL by real hunters and biologists who spend time in the real world. (Bankhead that's for you).
Now what if the data suggested no change was needed? Yay!!
For some reason y'all have the idea that the state wants to reduce the limit. I'm not sure where y'all have concluded that. We are only conducting the research to see IF it makes a difference and is needed. I've already said I'm for killing as many as possible if it's sustainable. I'm only asking questions that need to be asked, and doing the research answers them.
First off, Matt, no offfence intended. I know you and you do as good a job as any Bio out there, so not picking on you in particular. As a fellow biologist, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and commitment. To answer your first scenario, I am NOT and never have been a fan of modelling to set limits, etc. I think the current crop of biologists, AND professors teaching them, rely entirely too much on computers to make their decisions. That is what is leading to the current Global Warming debates - Modelling. I was taught by the Dan Speakes, Lovett Williams, George Hurst, Keith Causeys of the wildlife research world. Field biologists and researchers who knew the woods and wildlife. The current computer modelling craze would and is nauseating. So, I would NOT be much in favor of a computer model to tell me when the season should start and finish and how many each person should kill. Too many variables and unknowns to ever put in a computer program. Also, since the state agency has been given the task of managing the resource for the benefit of all users, what if a majority of hunters were in favor of a reduced bag? I've talked to far more in north AL that are in favor than the opposite. That is a fact. I've also talked to more in south AL who are opposed. So there are regional differences. The majority of hunters do not have the educational background to make decisions on bag limits and season lengths. Individual anecdotal data collection results in stupid regulations. Also too many diversified interests, that is why we have a game and fish division. Gobbler, I found time for you.
Greater illegal hen mortality has been associated with earlier opening dates (Normal et al. 2001), and substantial illegal hen mortality has occurred in areas when spring turkey season coincided with peak breeding (Kimmel and Kurzejeski 1985).
Other studies have shown considerable hen mortality as it relates to earlier opening dates (Wright and Speake 1975, Williams and Austin 1988, Davis et all 1995).
Mean nest incubation initiation is April 20-30 for south and central Al and as late as May 1-7 for north Al (Whitaker 2013). Meaning laying began approximately two weeks earlier.
On Thomas WMA in 1980, Everett determined average hatch as May 22-28, and ranged from May 1-June 24.
Peak gobbling periods in Clarke Co as determined by Davis in 1977 were April 5 and April 25. If peak gobbling coincides with breakup of winter flocks (first peak) and nest initiation (second), and that occurs in early April and late April in south AL, then it is certainly later in north AL.
Gardner found that the earliest hatch date was May 6 and 80% of poults hatched the last three weeks of may.
Metzler found that in North AL peak hatch occurred the first week of June.
I can go on and on and on. Those numbers are close to what I threw out, maybe a little later. I don't have a problem with shifting dates if it makes sense. Throwing out hen mortality with gobbler limits and season timing is a totally different scenario that we didn't talk about. Not part of setting gobbler limits if you ask me. Seems like to me people would be glad to have a state agency that's trying to lead in efforts of sound management, and get on top of a problem to correct it instead of falling behind and hitting the panic button once something catastrophic happens. Facts are that a lot of areas are experiencing a decline and poult recruitment is low and getting lower. Trying to figure out why and what to do about it is what we do. Another observation of mine is the ones who seem to have the biggest problem with change are the ones happily killing their limit each season, not experiencing a decline, and are determined to do it their way regardless of what the research indicates, and with no regard for the resource.  This discussion is NOT a sky is falling discussion or that the State IS going to reduce the bag limit. It is simply a debate on whether reducing the bag limit of gobblers makes sense. Everyone is throwing out their opinion - kinda like a debate.... hmmmm 
Last edited by gobbler; 04/27/15 07:22 AM.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20 |
Clem, we do have split seasons. I've often wondered why there isn't a later season for Birmingham north. Seasons like this year peak breeding is in April in my opinion. I appreciate all you state guys do, I just feel like a blanket limit reduction is probably the least effective route. Like I said earlier, I could get behind a limit reduction if there were some kind of facts presented to support it. Heck, I noticed on Hollins the other day that they burned a huge portion just recently. What the hell are they thinking? I'd like for everyone to be on the same page. Maybe allow some predator hunting during the summer on wmas?
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,378 Likes: 10
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,378 Likes: 10 |
Heck, I noticed on Hollins the other day that they burned a huge portion just recently. What the hell are they thinking? I'd like for everyone to be on the same page. Maybe allow some predator hunting during the summer on wmas? Atoler, this is NOT to pick on you either but your comment makes my point beautifully! They were thinking that they would practice excellent habitat management. Matt, if the hunting public were made up of Atolers, we would ban burning for turkeys! That is why EDUCATION, not regulation is the best route.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20 |
Heck, I noticed on Hollins the other day that they burned a huge portion just recently. What the hell are they thinking? I'd like for everyone to be on the same page. Maybe allow some predator hunting during the summer on wmas? Atoler, this is NOT to pick on you either but your comment makes my point beautifully! They were thinking that they would practice excellent habitat management. Matt, if the hunting public were made up of Atolers, we would ban burning for turkeys! That is why EDUCATION, not regulation is the best route. You think that burning a thousand acres of prime select cut nesting habitat in mid April is a good idea?? Really???? I love burning. I don't like for it to be done in the middle of nesting time
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20 |
Heck, I noticed on Hollins the other day that they burned a huge portion just recently. What the hell are they thinking? I'd like for everyone to be on the same page. Maybe allow some predator hunting during the summer on wmas? Atoler, this is NOT to pick on you either but your comment makes my point beautifully! They were thinking that they would practice excellent habitat management. Matt, if the hunting public were made up of Atolers, we would ban burning for turkeys! That is why EDUCATION, not regulation is the best route. They burned a huge chunk, possibly more than a thousand acres. It was all select cut mixed woods that looked to have been burned two seasons ago. Undergrowth was perfect for nesting pre burn. And it was still smoking last weekend......
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,615
10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,615 |
Ever watch Troy Ruiz kill a gobbler and you can see the burn still smoldering in the background , thats a Primos hunt .
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,620 Likes: 20 |
Ever watch Troy Ruiz kill a gobbler and you can see the burn still smoldering in the background , thats a Primos hunt . You are missing the point. Fresh burns are great turkey habitat. Burning a few dozen turkey nests is not real great though
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,615
10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,615 |
I know what you meant i was just throwing that in there
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,006 Likes: 12
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,006 Likes: 12 |
"Seems like to me people would be glad to have a state agency that's trying to lead in efforts of sound management, and get on top of a problem to correct it instead of falling behind and hitting the panic button once something catastrophic happens."
I am, and think most of the others on here are as well. I went to here Joel's presentation about this project at Dadeville in March. It was an enjoyable, informative presentation. Thanks for what you've shared here.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 14,356 Likes: 65
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 14,356 Likes: 65 |
Good! People that don't have deer bitched and got a restriction so by God lets restrict turkeys too. Hell Yeah, bring it. I ain't got any turkeys anyway so it would tickle the hell outa me.
Everything woke turns to shucks
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,735
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2010
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Good! People that don't have deer bitched and got a restriction so by God lets restrict turkeys too. Hell Yeah, bring it. I ain't got any turkeys anyway so it would tickle the hell outa me. Ya because that's exactly what people are doing. Its seems like to me hunters are reporting to the biologist what they are seeing and hearing in the field and the biologist are studying the issue before they make any recommendations. Soinds like the right way to do it.
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,378 Likes: 10
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,378 Likes: 10 |
You think that burning a thousand acres of prime select cut nesting habitat in mid April is a good idea?? Really???? I love burning. I don't like for it to be done in the middle of nesting time
In a word, Yes! Which is why I don't think succumbing to public pressure is a good idea from the educated and experienced Biologists at the State agency that makes hunting regulations. They have dedicated both their education dollars and their career choices and lives to natural resource and wildlife management - something VERY FEW hunters or other public participants have done! Most also read every research paper on their subject of interest every chance they get, also something most public resource users rarely do. We burned around 700 acres of this place last Thu and Fri. Private hunting land that is on a 3-4 year burn rotation and has had MOST burns in the last 10 years being April and May burns. Their turkey population has skyrocketed based on these recommendations. I would rather turkey hunt this place than pretty much every other place in Alabama that I know of. How many turkey nests did we burn up? I don't know but quite a few I am sure! Link is a video - can't figure how to post it right! [img]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p261/gobbler06/th_IMG_0755_zpsxcvcdqxu.mp4[/img]  
Last edited by gobbler; 04/27/15 03:01 PM.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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