Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk Serious Deer Talk Forum Map of Alabama deer restocking program

Coyote populations would also heavily impact the rate of doe expansion within one of these subset areas…..when you reach an equilibrium point of “no expansion” in areas due to mortality equaling or exceeding birth rates then it really would amplify this isolation effect of the doe populations on each other.

That map looks like a 4 year old threw paint on a wall.

Well if CNC is involved it’s a 4th grade mind

Go back and look at the original map posted in 2016. There’s dots, squares, triangles , blue marks , stop signs , and hexagons all over the friggin map.

There’s no telling what kind of deer we have and where they ended up.

The only thing I can guarantee anybody is that we have at best HALF the deer population we had 12 years ago in some parts of this state. Doesn’t matter what genetics they have if there aren’t enough of them to justify the season and bag limits we have. I’ve seen it and had my boots dirty on some of these places.

I've seen does swimming the Tennessee river and crossing pretty much every section of interstate I've driven in Alabama. I'm having a hard time grasping how these barriers are preventing the genetics from mixing. Rut dates were originally determined over time by the habitat and climate as well as genetics. Maybe in todays era of micromanaged habitats, some of the rut dates could be affected in small areas. This isn't even a theory of mine, or anything that I've given any real thought to. It's just a thought that just came to mind a moment ago, but right at this moment it makes as much sense to me. The rut timing in Alabama is far to complex for me to take enough time studying it to understand it fully and I think I'll just enjoy hunting whenever they rut and whenever I can get in the woods.

So I’m gonna attempt to explain the road effect one more time because I believe its most definitely happening and again I’m basing this stuff off of a lot of real world experience…….

Yes, you most definitely see does cross the interstate and highway as you are driving along……but what you don’t see unless you are there to watch it play out day after day is that the doe you saw eventually tries to come back across and maybe she does with no issue…..but tomorrow she does it again and again the next day and when a doe exhibits this behavior it doesn’t take very long at all before she is laying by the road dead. I’m talking a week or two usually. There are few does that use both sides for very long and likely none that do it for months and years….The road is steadily knocking these does off and choosing for the ones that don’t do it on either side……Meanwhile there is a replacement process that’s happening that’s “filling in” this mortality…….Knowing what we know about does using both sides of the road…..where do you think is the most likely place for the new does to come from?? This is not a complete all or nothing but what happens is 9 out of 10 new doe recruits are gonna come from the interior of the population to replace the road mortality or “fill in” like we’re recycling that trait within that pocket over and over without allowing much influence from another pocket beside it…There will be that 1 out 10 that fills in and is why you will see variation on the fringes. Some “barriers” will cause a more distinct break with less variation than others.

Once you see that this recycling from within process is actually happening with the doe herd…..then you need to look at this process in each pocket like it’s a physics expansion equation or like the doe herd is a balloon that is either slightly inflating, deflating, or remaining constant. Using Winston Co as an example you would have 5 main balloons within the county with the potential to isolate and recycle an estrous trait within each one with a little intermingling variance along the lines between each one.

If you grasp how this is playing out then it should really make you think about how we manage does…….For example, I’m fortunate to be in a “pocket” that is mostly a few ginormous land owners…..Those properties are heavily dictating the overall doe “expansion rate” that is occurring and they heavily impact the replacement rate of the doe mortality that is occurring on the fringes. In other words, the main player within your “pocket” could really dick everyone else within it if they decide they need to shoot a bunch of does…..vice versa though you could have these properties trap coyotes and maintain prime fawning habitat and positively impact the other folks too. A lot of this “needing” to shoot does is likely just screwing other folks by reducing expansion within the pocket to the point of no growth.

Let’s get some biologist focused on, and biological data on expanding and growing deer numbers and not antlers on some places in Alabama.

We can worry about rut timing and genetics once we have deer again.

Seriously, I drove from Oxford to auburn and several back roads twice last week and saw 4 deer. 4. There are more deer per acre in the middle of my neighborhood than there are in every place I hunt.

Yes, don’t care what anybody says, we have problems in a lot of places, so the score of the antlers and the rut, and all that crap is just crap.

You know this is just my opinion but if you really wanted to do something positive to impact the wildlife in Alabama then have some of the biologists or whoever to break the state down into all of these subsets like I’ve described even as detailed as that gets to be and then study each individual subset with the idea of making an overall assessment of that subset block in terms of the quality and amount of good habitat as well as the current populations that exist in that subset……Then once you have them all “graded” and more fully understood as to what is occurring in each one……You take them all and rate them each one in a manner such as which ones are in great shape…..which ones are just ok…..and which ones are poor kinda thing………You start working from the bottom up looking at each one with the idea of “what can be done to improve things” within this block…….The overriding #1 that will be or should be at the top of the list will be……Is there anything I can do to work with landowners within this block to improve the habitat? …..and this is where would be a good place to put some $$$ toward things from the side of “the state”……habitat restoration…….the other thing may be that we don’t tell quite as many clubs and landowners to shoot a bunch of does just because….. I also dont think we should take continued restocking from within our state borders off the table.

There are 150 inch deer killed all over Jefferson County. I know at least 2-3 groups that just bow hunt around the city here and they shoot stupid big deer and don't tell anyone for obvious reasons. One that I helped find... just over 170 inches 2 years ago on a tract of land near Trussville. You'd crap your pants. Same guy killed one over 150 last year so he's running out of space on his wall. I think that's really interesting... especially since I live in this hell hole and drive 2 hours somewhere, work my ass off and spend tons of money... to watch 110-120 inch deer I am hoping my neighbors don't shoot so it might be 150 next year. But they are good shots apparently.

There is nothing wrong with the deer in Alabama. What's wrong is people think big deer either don't or can't exist. They do and can. The real problem is the age structure of the herd. 110%.

Now Matt, keep the hostility down. Just because you're jealous that his throw and mow fields look 500% better than what you have planted on your farm there is no reason for you to be mean to Harold...........

^^^^^^ man speaketh the TRUTH!

Most people who react with harsh comments and personal attacks do so as a backlash to them not comprehending it…….Matt just does it because he’s an asshole.

Easy. Large variations in source genetics from restocking resulting in dominant gene pools in certain areas. Long range wandering bucks carry their genes with them but are not going to drastically alter the genetic estrous timing of a large area if they stop into a different dominant genetic area and breed one or two does. That is an outlier scenario rather than the norm. For every 1 new buck breeding a doe 10 miles from his home, there are probably 25 local bucks breeding does. It is the same reason that releasing those breeder bucks failed to have any effect on the black belt deer herd when they tried that. Also, as you said before, an outlier fawn born much earlier or later than the dominant herd timing is far more likely to be killed by predators. So outlier genes get taken out quickly.

In 500 years I would bet the Alabama rut eventually evens out into a more consistent date, but it has only been 50 or 60 years since most of this state had almost no deer. Most deer spend their whole lives within a few mile area, including bucks. It would take hundreds of years for surrounding January rut genetics to change the Bankhead gene pool because November is so dominant there. And it has nothing to do with highways.

A more interesting question would be what happens if a buck carrying January estrous genes breeds a doe with November genes (or vice versa)? Would a female offspring go into estrous in December halfway between each date or is one date more dominant genetically like blond hair vs. dark hair in humans?

My buddy hunts the property next to the bow club and I’ve helped him drag two good ones out of there. I grew up hunting in lowndes county and it blows my mind how many big deer are around here. I’ve got two that I would probably shoot with a bow that come in my backyard every night.

They are representing “peak rut” for the green a little wrong……The actual peak is 23-28…….Feb 8 is the extreme tail end of the 1st cycle…….The brown is likely just about 10 days earlier…..it may be a full two weeks ahead……I’ve seen a few strays over the years hot early around the 9th……..I’m pretty sure this is a “variance” deer….. but after that nothing happened for another 10-14 days until we hit the later rut …….I believe estrous dates are actually a lot tighter than most folks think within each population of does….Lets just say we have a population dominated by late January breeders……all of those late January does are gonna have a bell curve of estrous dates that is fairly tight and pretty much any individual population would naturally have a similar width bell curve…… The reason the rut lasts longer though in different areas is the variance caused by overlapping bell curves. Extreme south Alabama where folks have historically been complaining about late ruts probably has a rut that natural selection has shifted back another week or 10 days and they likely do have a peak date in early Feb the same way you see the brown area doing 10-14 days earlier……It would appear to be slightly changing as you move north/south because if you were to continue this progression southward moving it forward and forward you would eventually find yourself in the Keys with a rut in July.

I think the reason nature is choosing for a transition like that is due to how the vegetation changes during fawn drop. It’s following the timing of the plant cycles. Nature is choosing to have fawns during a period that matches a certain stage of vegetation growth……This is why its changing the way it does north to south because of the way the seasons change in timing. It seems to be the same concept with turkey poults…….Nature matches up the babies being born with the proper plant stage of food and cover for them……This would be an important concept to understand if we want to take measures to help the populations because this is really pointing us toward what nature says is “optimal”. It would stand to reason that over time natural selection would want to move it back to this smooth north to south transition though that may take a while and we may be hampering that. In a nutshell what this is saying is that the timing of the availability of certain (plants) nutrients influences reproductive rates.

Just a side note to some currunt observations......Coyotes are a much more strategic chess player in this game than we give them credit for……They are far and away not doing things randomly……They are hyper-focused on food sources and they learn patterns of mortality very well…….

You know someone has said this but they were absolutely right……there really isn’t any reason for us to continue using resources to try and sample does and figure out what the rut is doing in every single subset across the state……You can see that if we wanted to look at the “true picture” then it would mean having to sample deer down to a very small scale level to see it…….You would be having to sample possibly 5-10 locations or more in virtually every county to show it at its most detailed level…….So the question really becomes……”How much $$$ do we need to spend on showing it more and more detailed?”…….When is it enough?............Are we not just spending money and time to make sure we continue complicating in other ways? We’ve shown enough to understand what is happening…….Set us all under the same start and finish dates and let it ride. The more important part within each subset is population density.

Truth right here.

It literally has been proven scientifically by biologists (real, and some armchair) that bucks do not reach peak antler potential until ages 4-6 years old WHEN they have proper nutrition. So it stands to reason for anyone with a modicum of intelligence that:

Age and Food should be the top considerations to get the most out of whatever bucks your property is seeing.

If you can't plant or don't want to supplement, learn to identify native food sources and augment with Triple 13 for cheap goodies. Do some timber clearing if possible to eliminate undesirable trees. Do prescribed burns. If you have the means and desire to do more, knock yourself out with protein, corn, food plots or whatever.

Bucks don't get big and old when they get shot young.


All that said, hunt how you want to hunt to be happy. If a 110-inch 3-year-old skinny-body spindly 8-point makes you happy, so be it. Very cool. Congrats.

But don't kill that buck and then bitch about not seeing bigger bucks. You can't have it both ways.