Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Dr. Chamberlain

From my personal experience it's all about habitat. Before the property I hunt was clear-cut, we had piles upon piles of turkey. I saw more turkey deer hunting than I did deer, and it's the main reason I started turkey hunting.

This was old pine timber full of sweet gum and briars and sage. 25+ year old pines of what appears to be pretty poor seed stock considering the trees aren't very large for their age. The turkeys seemed to love it and thrive. The timber was cut, including the hardwoods the loggers could get to, and naturally the turkeys moved off.

You now find them only where there is mature hardwood growing on neighboring properties, despite a couple hundred acre block of the mature pines still being there from another family member who hasn't cut and doesn't plan on it. I don't ever see a turkey during deer season anymore, they only show up when the hens break out to nest. Nobody ever trapped the place before I started hunting it and the turkeys were in huge numbers regardless.

Timber doesn't get cut with turkeys in mind, it's cut when the price is good, access is good, when it's mature, and whenever the landowner wants to.

But look at the nest predators we do have. EVERYTHING wants to eat turkey eggs and poults. I do not personally know anyone who traps commercially. I do not personally know anyone who traps for the benefit of wild turkeys other than myself. I cannot do much good, but I still try to do my part. I really believe that the over population of nest predators is the true culprit of declining populations. Coons, crows, possums, bobcats, and coyotes are the most common critters in the woods. I also think declining turkey habitat is the number two reason for a decline. I think that hunting pressure is the reason for a decline in gobbling activity on public land, as well as a declining population. I don’t think we can say that simply by reducing the limit and modifying the season dates will do any good whatsoever without addressing what’s really hurting the population. I can’t understand why people ignore it unless it’s because the actual problem will require work and effort to correct, and thats just something the majority aren’t willing to sacrifice.

I was going to refrain from posting anything on this very controversial subject. And, will probably wish that I had! But, here is my take on it. The proposed changes have nothing to do with propagating the population of wild turkeys. It has far more to do with ‘spreading the wealth’. There are more hunters in the woods chasing turkeys in the Spring than any other time in history. And, if you will just do a minimal amount of research on all of the proponents of moving the Seasons back and reducing the bag limits for individual hunters, you will find that they have ALL freely expressed this. Beginning with the Covid Pandemic, more people flocked to the woods and waters than any other time documented. However, the harvest numbers remained the same. Gobbling activity did decrease on a lot of Public Land due to the sudden increase of hunting pressure, though. That info is collected through Autonomous Recording Units and is well documented if you know where to look. In order to capitalize on these new hunters (and license buyers) though, they need to have at least some limited success. It has been said for years by various Wildlife Researchers and other professionals that 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the turkeys. So, if you want more hunters to have success, you have to reduce the harvest by those 10%. This did not just come to the limelight. It has been lurking there for quite some time. However, it gained a tremendous amount of traction due to the influx of new hunters spawned by the Covid Crisis. So, appropriately, they are taking it and running with it!
Problem is, things just don’t really work that way in Nature. It is hard to build an excess. And, if habitat cannot support a turkey population, having too many next door would not matter anyway. There is a certain skillset required to consistently call in and kill mature gobblers. And, it is neither acquired overnight nor are all people capable of it. So, in my opinion, the theory is flawed.
I would also like to add my personal take on these changes. They primarily seem to be affecting Public Land hunters. So, why not start out enacting them on Public Land and lead by example. I feel certain that if they work so well, private landowners and leaseholders will surely follow suit in rapid fashion!! However, that has not been the case. As a matter of fact, the very land that many of the turkeys used to restock the depleted areas of the Southeast is no longer a Sanctuary, but basically a WMA that is hunted and turkeys killed on it. If the taking of mature gobblers is so detrimental to the reproductive ability of the flock as a whole, why is that allowed? Simply because it is not! A hen will remain fertile for up to 50 days from 1 breeding. And, while she may seek out a dominant bird, she will mate with any available suitor when the time is right. And that 1 breeding will fertilize her entire clutch.
So, let’s not get all caught up in the hype and just focus on the Reality. And that Reality is, if I can only kill 1 bird a Spring, I am still not gonna allow some random guy to go on my place and take another. So, it will not create more opportunities. It will just allow more birds to die of old age.

One of the worst nest predators and poult predators are the hogs
They will eat turkey eggs and poults in heartbeat
Trapping will turn around a declining turkey population
I’ve seen it done several times and am in the process of seeing it again

When I suggested that Kentucky was a fine example of a state with a late start, short season, and low limit, that was still experiencing a decline, he shot it down because breeding was significantly later in Kentucky, saying that it wasn’t really a late start date there.

In this episode, he states that there is no significant difference in breeding times across Alabama of Georgia.....


That really irks me. He says that to justify the blanket changes he’s been recommending. In reality, the Kentucky state line is 200 miles closer to Huntsville, than the distance between mobile and Huntsville.

There were single hens all over the place when we were in KY for youth weekend (April 3-4). No groups anywhere. Those hens were already initiating or just getting started. Regular season starts Saturday.

He’s making stuff up to fit an agenda. Obviously.

I experienced the same thing during KY youth weekend. We had several hens come in and intercept the tom my son was working. I know the farm I hunt has a coyote problem and I am going to try to take care of that this year but across the board the turkey numbers seem to be noticeably on the decline around that area..

Nest predators,decoys”fanning” and TSS. I mention TSS not for the kills but the idiots shooting at hung up birds and crippling them.

most of ya'll are way overthinking the problem. I have been chasing gobblers for 53 years across most of south and west Alabama, private and public land. A lot of different properties, some premium turkey properties.

I agree that predator numbers are up due to decrease in trapping and loss of small game opps due to deer hunters not wanting their woods disturbed. Hunter numbers are up, esp on public land. Lots of turkeys being killed.

to me none of this matters in the face of habitat destruction due to timber cutting, esp clear cutting. Turkeys won't LIVE in a damn clearcut. When I was in Hale Co I'd wager there were half the hardwoods between Hwy 14 and Moundville clearcut. Where do the turkeys go when all around them is clearcut???? The land I had in Jefferson Co was as good a turkey hunting place as any I ever hunted...till they heavily select cut it. Turkey population plunged to 1/3 of what it had been in one season.

I don't have an answer to this part of the problem, but I do know it is a major player in the declining populations across south and west Alabama.

Serious question from a new turkey hunter...do y’all think cell cams and ground blinds have an effect on a declining population?

No. Those things and decoys result in more birds being killed, but killing gobblers doesn’t effect poult production.

I agree with you Troy, BUT, how do you differentiate which one is worse (nest predation or habitat loss)? I think they are very close to being equally bad and equally as frequent. But let’s be honest and face reality. None of this matters in the least. No one is listening to us. No one cares. The fix is in. Just like the election.

I am on board with what Troy said as well. Turkeys aren't super complicated animals, but they require more specific habitat than deer. They need:

-Trees to fly up in and roost (mature timber, usually hardwood or large pines near water)
-Hardwoods to scratch in for food (have to be mature to offer a good amount of food between all the animals in the woods)
-Pines with open understory to loaf/breed/scratch/breed/strut in. Usually with pines come roads as well, and we all know how much turkey love roads
-Consistent water source
-They need all of this in a relatively concentrated area

If they get all of that then they are good. I know I have seen multiple people here say (not in this thread, but over the years) "turkey love a clear cut" and that has not been my experience at all. They may use a clear cut if forced to, but they sure don't appear to like it where I hunt. When given the choice they won't come back to a clear cut area if there are other places to go.

You take away much of the listed above habitat over a few weeks period from logging and what the hell are the turkeys gonna do? They have to move off and figure out a way to survive in a new area, competing with other turkeys, figuring out how to fit in and the lay of the land. I imagine there are huge turkey losses after extensive clear cutting because some simply won't figure it out and will die from predation or other causes.

I think timing of timber harvest also plays a role. A fall cut probably has less deleterious effects on turkeys than a spring cut. I imagine timber being cut in March or April really screws with turkeys and their breeding habits, probably darn near ruining the breeding season for entire flocks in some instances.

Hevi, I would think there are things that can be done to mitigate some of the factors causing a decline in numbers. Trapping has been shown to reduce predation, esp on nests. I don't know if reducing the annual kill by whatever means will turn the tide.

But I do know there is no viable fix to the mass destruction of habitat by clearcutting. No one is going to quit cutting trees for money.

10/4, thanks.

Yessir you are correct. Maybe you should dig down deep in your contacts and get our opinions out there 🙂

You are greatly exaggerating the effect timber harvest will have in the south moving forward. Maybe not the past - but from about 20 years ago and moving forward - most “conversion” has taken place. Pine plantation have been established and rotated for years. Some on their 2nd and 3rd rotations. The patchwork nature most timberland functions today is not having a huge impact on a large scale level. My average CC size is 90 acres.

Turkey adapted pretty well to it actually - better than expected. It’s pretty much water under the bridge at this point.

IMO - the state could use more timberland - it would be better for turkey. They don’t like concrete jungles, a new house and yard with kids playing in the backyard, a 10 acre horse farm where they once roosted or maybe a hen could nest. And those encumbrances are permanent. Timberland is rotational and always changing. We need more, not less.

I havent read but a handful of the comments on here but here is something that jumps out at me right off the bat......Why not invite the guy to come on here and actually give him a chance instead only waiting to pounce on him as hard as you can......Time will decide if he can take the heat but you dont have to run him off on the first play.......The more positive contributors to the site the better and maybe a little back and forth between everyone may end being a good thing for the turkey

I agree, we clear-cut 260 acres on our place and the turkey are loving the clear-cut for nesting. We did leave very wide/generous SMZ's so they still have a good bit of hardwood bottoms to utilize. If you cut every single tree on a piece of property it may be different but diversity and having nesting, brood rearing and winter habitat are all important.

To Hogwild, everybody loves to bitch about Chamberlain and his theories and you are one of the first that I have seen to explain why you believe the state's are running with it. I agree with you because the answer is almost always related to money. The more folks they can capitalize on getting hooked on turkey hunting the more money they can make off licenses as well as tax revenue on everything related to turkey hunting from guns/shells to gas.

As hardwood prices continue to rise, the pressure to cut those hardwood bottoms increases. Most of the big river bottoms I hunted as a young man are now pine plantations.

My common sense approach is to reduce the population of turkey egg eaters. I can afford to buy a dozen Duke traps. Can't afford river bottom hardwoods.