Aldeer.com Forums Alabama Deer Talk ALTurkey Talk -- Beards and Spurs Very informative info

95 percent of the stuff that comes out of that guys mouth is completed fabricated. The only information worth a damn is the gps studies mostly carried out by grad students or whoever else. His “takeaways “ are often at odds with each other.

Much like a politician he comes across very authoritative and confident. Also like a politician - it’s all horseshit.

I think predation was a big cause in the decrease in quail numbers much like turkey. As we continue to manage our place for turkey I have noticed an increase in quail numbers. We don't have huntable numbers on our place but it's not uncommon to see a few coveys. I'm not saying everything Chamberlain is saying is fact but I find it odd that so many people think a wildlife biologist who specializes in wild turkey management is wrong.

I actually agree with a lot said in the podcast. The number of eggs laid to produce another hen is astounding. Even if they move the season back until most hens are already on nests the predators will have the greatest effect on the population. My hypothesis is a trap line will increase turkey numbers (which is my goal) more than reducing the limits and moving back opening day. So I am in favor of encouraging people to trap and against reductions in opportunity.

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I think predation was a big cause in the decrease in quail numbers much like turkey. As we continue to manage our place for turkey I have noticed an increase in quail numbers. We don't have huntable numbers on our place but it's not uncommon to see a few coveys. I'm not saying everything Chamberlain is saying is fact but I find it odd that so many people think a wildlife biologist who specializes in wild turkey management is wrong. [/quote]

To clarify my position, I certainly don't think Chamberlain is "wrong" about the facts he has presented. I just object to him and others presenting a theory as if it is a fact, when they don't have any real evidence. It may indeed be that there are places where gobbler hunting is affecting poult recruitment, but they have no evidence to prove it. When any of them actually present the theory, they use a lot of qualifiers like "could be," and "might be," but then they repeat it so often and change seasons because of it and that makes many just accept it as fact. Yet where is the evidence that places that aren't hunted produce more poults than places that are?

I don't think it's unreasonable for hunters and land managers to want to see real evidence before changing procedures that have worked well for over 50 years.

I support this post

Why do predators harm the turkey populations more today than they did 10- 20 years ago. With the exception of the eagle no new predator has emerged, I would think more coons coyotes and possums are trapped and killed now more than ever. Was there a boom in predator numbers if so what caused it?

I know for one thing there are not many coon hunters like there used to be...also, I think the coyote population has definitely increased over the years...

Not very likely. Fur prices have tanked over the last twenty years and the only people trapping or seem to care are turkey hunters. There’s nowhere near the trappers there used to be

Here are the reasons I think the predator population is up. The pelts are not worth much and trapping is a dying art. Coon hunters like to tree coons. Many will simply tree and pull the dog off and move on to tree another. That way the coon can be treed again tomorrow. Killing the coon is not the goal of the hunt,

I did not know a single person that trapped or hunted raccoons 20 yrs ago. Now I trap and know several others that do as well and know more coon hunters now than ever before. So raccoons are the main culprit in turkey populations that appear to have declined in yalls opinion? Has the state done any research into the population of the raccoon and how to address it if it keeps growing and harming other species?

Fur prices crashed way earlier than some of y’all know or remember. The bottom of the market fell out by 1985, 35+ years ago, when Europeans (especially Germans) all but ceased importing furs. While it’s a popular notion, I can assure you the trapping declined that followed didn’t result in an explosion of predators in AL. Trapping in these parts just wasn’t pervasive or intensive—even back then— to control predator populations on a widespread basis.

Intensive predator hunting and trapping may help turkeys, but don’t blame their slump on the lack of a fur market. It ain’t that simple.

This is my thought as well there have always been tons of raccoons not sure why they suddenly hurt the population in places but were not an issue before.

#1. Timber management practices
#2. More turkey hunters than ever before.
#3. Predators. Eagles. Coyote population at an all time high and what few coons hunters there are now don't kill the coons. Everyone used to coons hunt and every kid had a few traps.
#4. Disease. Chicken house litter untreated and spread as fertilizer is a death sentence.

My 2 cents worth!

My opinion is you're spot on with number 1 and 2.
Clearcuts ruin turkey populations. Especially in the 3rd to 6th years of regrowth. They're too thick and turkeys won't use it.
Unfortunately nobody seems to be interested in select cutting timber anymore. It's all about maximum profits.
There's far far far too damn many people harassing turkeys. They ain't all killing turkeys but they're constantly harassing them.

https://ag.tennessee.edu/fwf/craigharper/Documents/BroilerLitter--TimelyTips.pdf

I agree with 2 and 3. While there is evidence that laying house litter may contribute to the spread of blackhead disease it is believed that broiler farms litter doesn’t affect them. As for 1, I have a friend who has a lease that is the worst managed piece of land I’ve ever been on. 90% planted pines, once thinned never burned and it’s overrun with birds. This property is the nastiest piece of property in Henry County and the one time I hunted it this year I had 6 birds hammering at daylight and killed one at 0930.

I am going to date myself as an old fart with this. In the 80's there were numerous boys that trapped. They trapped for coons and fox mostly. There were no coyotes. The profits from selling the pelts bought beer, guns and other things they needed. It was the wintertime version of the kid with the gas can and lawnmower walking through the neighborhood. Trappers traveled to the South in the month of February and trapped coon, fox, bobcats and beaver. Those guys camped out in a trailer park near my childhood home and the number of pelts they had drying at any one time was incredible. It was a very profitable venture. Now I look at my trapping efforts and I am a wannabe. Most of the guys I know that trap will catch 10-20 coon/possum and mostly trap because they are eating corn out of the deer feeder.

In the past Delta Waterfowl did a lot of research on nest predation and the effects of trapping on nest success. Intensively trapping a tract had a very positive effect on the numbers of eggs hatched and raised to adult ducks. Both species are ground nesters and have the same predators. Maybe those studies have been done for turkeys. If anyone is aware of any please point me in the right direction to read them.

North40R is dead on. I'm going to forewarn y'all that this is a long rant so I don't blame any of y'all for ignoring my unsolicited opinions! My Father started taking me turkey hunting since I was old enough to walk. Back in those days we never deer hunted and I grew up fall and spring turkey hunting. Fast forward 30 plus years and I am still consumed with everything turkey and the people who know me can attest to that. I'm lucky enough to be able to spend most mornings in the spring woods and have noticed several things over the years. I also hunt several other states each spring and have some experience in comparing their current situations to ours. There's several others on this forum who have much more experience than myself but through conversation seem to notice some of the same things I'm observing. I have these type of discussions with several close friends who are also avid turkey hunters and these are some of the things we have been discussing.

1) Timber Management Practices- No doubt I think this is probably the main concern and my forester friends who are avid turkey hunters agree. The reason is two fold imo. First is lack of diverse habitat through large tracts of pine monoculture and new forestry practices associated with this. This is especially evident in certain regions of South Alabama and especially the Western and SW portions of the state. There are much less mass producing hardwoods forests scattered and many more areas of large scale corporate timber land. I hunt different types of land across the state and the properties that have a high diversity of high quality turkey habitat consistently hold a higher density of turkeys that seem to roam much less than other areas with less desirable habitat. Second, not only are these types of habitats less conducive to turkeys but in turn are more conducive to predators. So now we are dealing with habitats requiring turkeys to to move longer distances to find suitable habitat, and in turn hold more predators. I don't care what ppl say about how coyotes don't affect turkeys, From my experience and the ppl I know who raise turkeys, coyotes are an absolute problem for hens when they are sitting on the nest. When those hens are sitting they are very vulnerable and if a coyote gets a hen on the next he is also getting all the eggs. Due to the current state of fur prices and boom of predators, unless ppl take on trapping themselves the predators are likely to continue to be a concern.

2) Hunter Pressure- When I started turkey hunting it was nothing to get permission to turkey hunt. We were almost viewed as outcasts who would rather hunt a turkey than a deer. Boy has that changed over the years! As most of you can probably attest it is almost impossible to get turkey rights to a place anymore. People have gotten so passionate about turkey hunting the idea of subleasing turkey rights has become almost non negotiable. Most of the hunting clubs that used to be primarily composed of deer hunters are now likely to have at least 50% of the membership who turkey hunt. Because of this they are unwilling to lease out rights and in turn now you have a much higher turkey hunter density on a tract of land. Although I agree with the science that if you have successful poult production gobbler harvest shouldn't matter, but now with the use of extremely realistic decoys, ground blinds, and trail cams it's not very difficult for the average guy to go out and shoot a couple turkeys regardless of experience or calling ability. Additionally, a piece of property can hunt many more deer hunters than turkey hunters. A 2,000 acre tract of land can be hunted pretty quickly by just one or two guys turkey hunting and I'm seeing properties like this with 8-10 guys trying to hunt. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who will say "yea I've killed a couple on my place that only I can hunt and I'm done hunting there " to go on and say "But I'm going down to the club and I'm going to kill all I can because I know if I don't the other guys will". I hear this same type of conversation on public lands as well. Because our state has very liberal bag limits those numbers can add up very quickly with the increased amount of hunters in the woods on the properties that don't regulate the amount of turkeys killed. For some reason deer management seems to be all the rage today with well managed lands limiting deer harvest through age and sex restrictions. I can't tell you how many leased properties have rules that limit buck and doe harvests although the state regulations allow a much higher harvest. They do this because they know there's only a finite number of deer and especially mature deer on the property. In order to sustain quality harvest over the years they must limit deer harvest according the limitations of the property. However, most of these properties seem to have a far less strict approach on turkey management on an animal that imo is far more susceptible to outside factors than deer. I again go on to say I am fine with the limits in place with the state but people need to understand that you 8 other hunters cannot kill their 5 turkeys on the same 2500 acre tract, it's just not sustainable. The turkey limits in place are fine as long as over harvest isn't occurring on site specific properties. No property is created equally and harvest regulations need to be regulated on a per property basis. The government cannot do this (except maybe on specific public lands with the proper data) but until people begin to manage turkey harvest on a per property basis I think we will always be concerned with turkey numbers.

I know I've rambled on forever and most of you won't read or give a crap about anything I have to say but I'm very passionate about turkeys and turkey hunting. I love the turkey hunting culture our state has and I think a reason we have this culture is due to our long season and liberal bag limits. However, I'm afraid that due to things out of our control on a large scale (timber management, ag practices, predators) unless we start hunting these birds with a more conservation minded approach it is inevitable that the state will eventually shorten the season and limits in order to try and mitigate declining numbers.

Some of the better places I’ve had access to hunt was just about all pines.

Land use changes has had more of an effect on the turkey populations in our area than anything else. Those big peanut fields where we use to see flocks of 50 to 75 birds feeding in late winter after a rain are planted in long leaf now. Those huge pines and oaks where turkeys use to roost have long since gone to the saw mill. The dogwoods are mostly all gone, turkeys love dogwood berries. It is not just turkeys. IMO wildlife populations in general are just not what they were. I have been on the same land for 33 years. It has been a long time since I have seen a turkey track on our place.

Very well said. As a wildlife professional, I agree 100%.