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38 members (Curdoggin, Irishguy, beano1, kyles, outdoorguy88, jacannon, MoeBuck, StateLine, MikeP, 000buck, Fbw93, cartervj, Narrow Gap, Skullworks, wareagle22, Obsession, PikeRoadHunter, AUjerbear, Josh3, MCW, BPI, Young20, 3Gs, 7mmSTW, mopar, Bama-66, fur_n_feathers, mjs14, janiemae, Fishminer91, gobblebox, gregnbc, 6 invisible),
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 2,416 Likes: 26
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 2,416 Likes: 26 |
Take it from somebody that has 1165 acres of mainly native deer under high fence, bucks die at a super high rate due to fighting and getting run down. We try to keep our doe population at around 125 and there are no more than eight bucks a year taken. In a perfect world you would think you should have at least 60 bucks having a birthday every year but that is not the case. We may have five a year that make it to five years old.
Last edited by JohnG; 03/05/20 09:11 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377 |
QDMA never has preached kill all the does. People without a strong understanding of deer management applied heavy doe harvest improperly in some areas and blamed QDMA because they screwed up. That’s one of the most often used excuses I hear, and QDMA has received a ton of bad publicity for something they never preached. They encouraged annual doe harvest as part of a comprehensive management plan, and it should be exercised in such a way as to accomplish landowner objectives. Sadly, some people took that too far and who gets the blame? Not the ones who made that decision. The QDMA. That’s 100% FACT.  I don’t blame the QDMA. I blame the State and their inability to see what the results of the liberal doe harvest would have in a State full of sure enough killers.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377 |
A large portion of deer hunters in Alabama are not thinking deer management when they pull the trigger on a doe. It is legal so it must be ok. Time to rethink our current system. ^^^^^^ Fact
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517 |
Take it from somebody that has 1165 acres of mainly native deer under high fence, bucks die at a super high rate due to fighting and getting run down. We try to keep our doe population at around 125 and there are no more than eight bucks a year taken. In a perfect world you would think you should have at least 60 bucks having a birthday every year but that is not the case. We may have five a year that make it to five years old. So out of 150-175 fawns born each year only 5 bucks a year make it to 5 years old. I presume you are trying to only kill what you consider mature bucks, that is insane. How many does do you have to kill a year to maintain the doe population at 125.
If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,071 Likes: 83
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 29,071 Likes: 83 |
I'd be careful comparing high fence stats to those outside of the fence even if it is 1165....if the buck population is pretty much at maximum capacity then there just isn't anywhere for the subordinate bucks to move to like in a free range setting. I'd bet there way more social conflict inside of a fence like that. Outside of the fence there will be places void of bucks where the ones that get run off can move to. Isee it every year here as I go from nothing but does to bucks suddenly showing up. Much less fighting
Last edited by CNC; 03/05/20 10:54 PM.
Folks that know don't shoot old does........ 
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
3 point
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3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184 |
Wait a second.....
we are now trying to say that does produce more does than bucks naturally? So if you have more does they will breed and produce more does?
It is getting DEEP round here. DEEP.
Having and seeing are too different things. IF you property survey your deer herd and.....
Again... if you have "too many does" 4:1 vs bucks or more..... someone killed the bucks. Y'all are talking about "I need to shoot these 30 does". That's more than a little out of whack.
Someone shot the bucks. That is the ONLY logical reason your ratio would be that messed up.
100% FACT.
What do y'all think happens... do you think does are just hatching up out of the mud? Typically does produce roughly 1 to 1 ratio of bucks to does. Buck mortality is naturally higher. A "perfectly balance by nature" herd wouldn't be quite 1 to 1. It would be very very slightly doe heavy. If you started the season with a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio, and shot 90% of your bucks and 0% of your does, after natural mortality and fawn recruitment factored in the following season, you'd have probably a better doe to buck ratio (like 3 to 1) to start the season. It's near biological impossibility to have worse than a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio to start your season. The best management will never get you to a true 1 to 1, but with good management you can have less than 2 to 1 ratio. Even with poor management you'll float around 3 or 4 to 1.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
3 point
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3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184 |
The QDMA association has preached kill every doe you can see for the last 20 years.
And worship every SOOS and every other scabby inferior antler buck you see. Not even close.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780 |
Wait a second.....
we are now trying to say that does produce more does than bucks naturally? So if you have more does they will breed and produce more does?
It is getting DEEP round here. DEEP.
Having and seeing are too different things. IF you property survey your deer herd and.....
Again... if you have "too many does" 4:1 vs bucks or more..... someone killed the bucks. Y'all are talking about "I need to shoot these 30 does". That's more than a little out of whack.
Someone shot the bucks. That is the ONLY logical reason your ratio would be that messed up.
100% FACT.
What do y'all think happens... do you think does are just hatching up out of the mud? Typically does produce roughly 1 to 1 ratio of bucks to does. Buck mortality is naturally higher. A "perfectly balance by nature" herd wouldn't be quite 1 to 1. It would be very very slightly doe heavy. If you started the season with a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio, and shot 90% of your bucks and 0% of your does, after natural mortality and fawn recruitment factored in the following season, you'd have probably a better doe to buck ratio (like 3 to 1) to start the season. It's near biological impossibility to have worse than a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio to start your season. The best management will never get you to a true 1 to 1, but with good management you can have less than 2 to 1 ratio. Even with poor management you'll float around 3 or 4 to 1. BS!!! Did you just make that up?? 5:1 ratio. Shoot 90% bucks and no does and the results is less does at a 3:1 ratio. Think about what you just said.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
3 point
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3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184 |
Wait a second.....
we are now trying to say that does produce more does than bucks naturally? So if you have more does they will breed and produce more does?
It is getting DEEP round here. DEEP.
Having and seeing are too different things. IF you property survey your deer herd and.....
Again... if you have "too many does" 4:1 vs bucks or more..... someone killed the bucks. Y'all are talking about "I need to shoot these 30 does". That's more than a little out of whack.
Someone shot the bucks. That is the ONLY logical reason your ratio would be that messed up.
100% FACT.
What do y'all think happens... do you think does are just hatching up out of the mud? Typically does produce roughly 1 to 1 ratio of bucks to does. Buck mortality is naturally higher. A "perfectly balance by nature" herd wouldn't be quite 1 to 1. It would be very very slightly doe heavy. If you started the season with a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio, and shot 90% of your bucks and 0% of your does, after natural mortality and fawn recruitment factored in the following season, you'd have probably a better doe to buck ratio (like 3 to 1) to start the season. It's near biological impossibility to have worse than a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio to start your season. The best management will never get you to a true 1 to 1, but with good management you can have less than 2 to 1 ratio. Even with poor management you'll float around 3 or 4 to 1. BS!!! Did you just make that up?? 5:1 ratio. Shoot 90% bucks and no does and the results is less does at a 3:1 ratio. Think about what you just said. I did not say less does anywhere in that quote. That said some will die from various causes. Deer breed. https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/
Last edited by 280REM; 03/06/20 05:53 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
3 point
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3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184 |
If you think about it, that’s an article that in some ways support that killing does willy nilly isn’t the most sound management practice. You can have and see a lot of deer if you let does walk. Obviously every proper and herd is different.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780 |
You said you would go from 5:1 to 3:1 by killing 90% of the bucks. So, if you have 100 does and 20 bucks and kill 18 of those bucks, the next season starts at 100:2 or 50:1. Of course you know by that article and it you read Dr. James Kroll the concern in the sex ratios is breeding and fawns aren't counted. And 3:1 ratio is a good, realistic goal for the serious hunters.
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 639
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 639 |
He ain’t far off if we’re talking boys to girls and not antlered bucks to does. Gotta keep in mind there was a year’s worth of fawns on the ground (1:1 boys to girls) and will be more on the way the following year. Those will be hatched 1:1. Reality is it’s hard to drive the ratios much past 5:1; impossible really if you’re shooting branch antlered deer. Nothing is 100% but he’s close, I think.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780 |
He's quoting Kip Adams. He just left off the part where Kip assumed 20% natural mortality of does. No does killed by hunters.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
3 point
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3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184 |
He's quoting Kip Adams. He just left off the part where Kip assumed 20% natural mortality of does. No does killed by hunters. The article explains the math and numbers used to arrive at the final numbers. It’s pretty simple. Deer breed. Pretty prolifically too. Humans can help manage for better herds but even poorly managed the deer work things out pretty well by nature.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
3 point
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3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184 |
You said you would go from 5:1 to 3:1 by killing 90% of the bucks. So, if you have 100 does and 20 bucks and kill 18 of those bucks, the next season starts at 100:2 or 50:1. You’re forgetting the fawns that were on the ground to start the season not counted in those numbers.
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