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Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: truedouble] #683852
09/19/13 03:46 PM
09/19/13 03:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180
Coffee Co, AL
J
jlccoffee Offline
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jlccoffee  Offline
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Posts: 8,180
Coffee Co, AL

Originally Posted By: truedouble
do numerous variables among those surveyed impact the accuracy of the results?


No...that is accounted for in figuring out what sample size you need.

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: CPiper] #683856
09/19/13 03:49 PM
09/19/13 03:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 18,778
colbert county
cartervj Online content
Old Mossy Horns
cartervj  Online Content
Old Mossy Horns
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Posts: 18,778
colbert county
Originally Posted By: CPiper
Originally Posted By: deerman24
the limit on does is just crazy. that is an attempt to sell more licenses. The deer population is down because people are shooting all the does. that there is crazy.


What is crazy?
That there is a limit on doe deer?
That people are shooting all the does?
That the population is down because people are shooting all the does?
Getting folks to shoot more doe deer as a means to generate revenue?
All of the above?

You don't think there needs to be a limit on doe deer?


get to hear people say they don't see any deer then tell you about the ones they've seen in their gardens and such laugh


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: 49er] #683858
09/19/13 03:50 PM
09/19/13 03:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 282
The Woods
C
CPiper Offline
4 point
CPiper  Offline
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C
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Posts: 282
The Woods
Originally Posted By: 49er
Read it again.

There is nothing in the law about permits for crop damage. The commissioner made that crap up all by himself, and you just brought that subject up on your own.... not me.

I don't think antlerless deer seasons should be closed in "any county or area" where depredation permits are being used to kill deer. There's no way the season has been closed because "... it is found necessary to the conservation and perpetuation of such species" in such areas. [See: C.O.A., Section 9-2-7b(7)] Our legislature passed Section 9-11-240 to authorize the commissioner to handle crop damage problems by opening the antlerless season.

There is nothing in my post about opening deer season year round. That was your idea. The commissioner might open antlerless deer season year round statewide, but it would only be open on a particular parcel of land if the owner or leasholder consented to it being open there. The commissioner could then close it when it became necessary for the protection and perpetuation of the species. I don't have a problem with that. That's what the law requires.



There is
a provision in the law for antlerless season to be opened for "biological reasons" provided this meets with the approval of the landowner or leaseholder.


Is this site specific?
Are there acreage limitation? As in, if I owned or leased ONE acre, I would have the same voice as a owner or leaser or 1000 acres?
What if 2 land owners disagree that have land the butts up to each other, who wins there? Each land owner does does their own thing, with no regard for the other, and no regard to the rights of the PEOPLE of the sate of Alabama who own the wildlife?

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: CPiper] #683973
09/19/13 04:45 PM
09/19/13 04:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
Booner
49er  Offline
Booner
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Warrior River Country
CPiper,

Quote:
Is this site specific?


It sure is.




Quote:
Are there acreage limitation? As in, if I owned or leased ONE acre, I would have the same voice as a owner or leaser or 1000 acres?


Did you see anything in the words of the law about size of the land? If it's not already there, don't try to read something into the law that isn't there.




Quote:
What if 2 land owners disagree that have land the butts up to each other, who wins there? Each land owner does does their own thing, with no regard for the other, and no regard to the rights of the PEOPLE of the sate of Alabama who own the wildlife?


Here's how the PEOPLE of our state who own wildlife defined the purpose of government:




Constitution of Alabama 1901

Quote:
SECTION 35
Objective of government.


That the sole object and only legitimate end of government is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and when the government assumes other functions it is usurpation and oppression.

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: jlccoffee] #684118
09/20/13 01:22 AM
09/20/13 01:22 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
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B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: jlccoffee
That's what I don't like about the mandatory reporting. We already had a valid sample.


AL already has a statistically valid harvest census? I was unaware of that.

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: mike35549] #684136
09/20/13 02:01 AM
09/20/13 02:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180
Coffee Co, AL
J
jlccoffee Offline
14 point
jlccoffee  Offline
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Posts: 8,180
Coffee Co, AL
AL already has a harvest survey. If it isn't statistically valid they just need to increase the sample size to a level that is statistically valid.....which is nowhere near the level of a mandatory reporting system.

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: mike35549] #684230
09/20/13 03:43 AM
09/20/13 03:43 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
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Nashville, TN
OK, don't have a statistically valid survey YET. Gotcha...

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: mike35549] #684268
09/20/13 04:13 AM
09/20/13 04:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,648
Lincoln, Alabama
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blumsden Online content
12 point
blumsden  Online Content
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Posts: 5,648
Lincoln, Alabama
How do we know that deer numbers are on a decline, i can't tell it where i hunt? As i've said before, when you start putting pressure on the doe's, they'll be harder to see, just like bucks. Just because sightings have went down, doesn't mean that there is less deer. Some places in Alabama are so thick, you cant see a deer unless it crosses a firelane, or comes out into a plot. If everytime a deer does this, someone shoots them, before long, they wont walk out into a firelane or food plot until dark. One way to know if you have less deer, is by monitoring exclusion cages thru the years. If the food outside the cages, starts catching up with the food inside the cages, then your numbers could be down. Notice i said could be. When the acorns go to falling, deer abandone plots, keep that in mind, as well as lack of moisture.

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: mike35549] #684369
09/20/13 06:23 AM
09/20/13 06:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
bigt Offline
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Gulfcrest
Deer numbers are definitly down in my area, but I am sure there are areas that are still loaded with deer. That is one of the reasons I can not understand why hunters have a problem with reporting what they kill(unless they are not following existing laws already) to help the state get accurate harvest numbers across the state. This way they can investigate more accurately when an area is showing something out of line for the rest of the state. I just do not get all the crying about making a phone call because everybody I know can not wait to call all their friends and family to tell them about the deer they just killed! So what's one more call?

Last edited by bigt; 09/20/13 06:23 AM.

Life is too short to be small !!

http://crshuntingclub.webs.com/
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: mike35549] #684374
09/20/13 06:33 AM
09/20/13 06:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,543
Awbarn, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
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Posts: 21,543
Awbarn, AL
What is far more important than whether you believe the deer population is up or down is. How is the deer population in relation to the habitat at this current time? It doesnt really matter if we had twice as many deer back when the black belt was agricultureetcetc. What matters are the conditions now. What type of habitat is present and how much of that habitat is available? What type of condition is that habitat in? Is the deer herd currently in balance with that habitat? Many deer managers and biologists recommend keeping the deer herd at around 50% of carrying capacity in order to maintain a healthy deer herd that produces adequate yields as well as maintaining a healthy habitat.

One thing you have to consider when folks want to see lots and lots of deer is that the habitat pays a price for a supporting a high deer population. Property that is not managed to meet the needs of a large deer population can quickly become degraded and void of many key species that should normally be found. Even high quality habitat can be degraded if game populations are not kept in check. Look at the mess Pennsylvania has went through because deer populations got so high that forests were not able to properly regenerate. Now in many areas deer populations have been greatly reduced to try and allow the habitat to recover. Deer populations are driven by the habitat.

Coyotes moving into the southeast was probably a good thing for most of us. Before they really took hold, several areas of Alabama were verging on overpopulation issues. Looking back on it we were not managing the deer herd as we probably should have been because of lack of doe harvesting and coyotes moved in to fill that niche. Hunters and deer mangers must now learn to live with the coyote and adjust our doe harvests accordingly when needed.

Last edited by CNC; 09/20/13 06:35 AM.

The Corn Crash!!!
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: mike35549] #684404
09/20/13 07:16 AM
09/20/13 07:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
Frankie Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Frankie  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
CNC ,,, you were doing pretty good up to the part of living with coyotes . lol

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: bigt] #684408
09/20/13 07:20 AM
09/20/13 07:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
Frankie Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Frankie  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
Originally Posted By: bigt
Deer numbers are definitly down in my area, but I am sure there are areas that are still loaded with deer. That is one of the reasons I can not understand why hunters have a problem with reporting what they kill(unless they are not following existing laws already) to help the state get accurate harvest numbers across the state. This way they can investigate more accurately when an area is showing something out of line for the rest of the state. I just do not get all the crying about making a phone call because everybody I know can not wait to call all their friends and family to tell them about the deer they just killed! So what's one more call?



it's mandatory , useless and uses funds that would better spent else where . plus it's added work for our GW's

Last edited by Frankie; 09/20/13 07:21 AM.
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: Frankie] #684431
09/20/13 08:19 AM
09/20/13 08:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,093
alabama
BhamFred Online mad
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Online Mad
Freak of Nature
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Posts: 36,093
alabama
Originally Posted By: Frankie
CNC ,,, you were doing pretty good up to the part of living with coyotes . lol


you got that right, I damn sure don't want any help from a coyote "managing" my deer herd. they are not very selective in taking out fawns and grown deer.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: Frankie] #684442
09/20/13 08:33 AM
09/20/13 08:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
bigt Offline
14 point
bigt  Offline
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Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
Originally Posted By: Frankie
Originally Posted By: bigt
Deer numbers are definitly down in my area, but I am sure there are areas that are still loaded with deer. That is one of the reasons I can not understand why hunters have a problem with reporting what they kill(unless they are not following existing laws already) to help the state get accurate harvest numbers across the state. This way they can investigate more accurately when an area is showing something out of line for the rest of the state. I just do not get all the crying about making a phone call because everybody I know can not wait to call all their friends and family to tell them about the deer they just killed! So what's one more call?



it's mandatory , useless and uses funds that would better spent else where . plus it's added work for our GW's


I understand it is mandatory..... probably because hardly anyone would partcipate in the voluntary one that has been around for a while. As far as useless....how so? From what I have read not one biologist has said it would be useless data just some hunters. I can not argue that there may be better places to spend the money but heck that goes for the majority of money the Gov. spends. How is it added work for the GW?


Life is too short to be small !!

http://crshuntingclub.webs.com/
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: BhamFred] #684444
09/20/13 08:34 AM
09/20/13 08:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
bigt Offline
14 point
bigt  Offline
14 point
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Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
Originally Posted By: Frankie
CNC ,,, you were doing pretty good up to the part of living with coyotes . lol


you got that right, I damn sure don't want any help from a coyote "managing" my deer herd. they are not very selective in taking out fawns and grown deer.


X2


Life is too short to be small !!

http://crshuntingclub.webs.com/
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: mike35549] #684465
09/20/13 08:56 AM
09/20/13 08:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,543
Awbarn, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
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Posts: 21,543
Awbarn, AL
The problem is that we do not really have a choice about living with the coyote. We are just pounding sand to try and fight it. Youll not get rid of coyotes. Can you trap and have some effect on fawn recruitment?..sure..but its a very expensive, labor intensive method that only produces short term results. Without continual, intense trapping.predator populations will moderate right back out in balance with the prey populations and may even rebound to much higher levels than what was originally found. This is due to the fact that because we have eliminated a key predator, then many of the small game populations will increase and set the table with a food supply capable of supporting many more coyotes than when game populations were moderated. By eliminating the predators we set the table for a possible boom and bust.



There are better long term solutions to dealing with coyotes rather than trapping. For those that are in the position to do soadding adequate fawning cover to your property is a much better solution. Game populations are directly tied to the habitat that supports them. Instead of trying to eliminate a part of the food chain that you will never get rid of..instead, increase the capacity of the whole food chain. The driving force for the whole process is the habitat. Use your time, effort and resources to improve the habitat instead of battling coyotes.

Another solution to look to as well before trapping is to reduce doe harvests to help counter fawn mortality. Its much easier to not pull the trigger than it is to run a bunch of trap lines.


Last edited by CNC; 09/20/13 08:58 AM.

The Corn Crash!!!
Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: BSK] #684525
09/20/13 10:05 AM
09/20/13 10:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
14 point
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Birmingham
Originally Posted By: BSK
OK, don't have a statistically valid survey YET. Gotcha...


thanks for asking...I sure thought coffee was making the point that sense we already have a valid harvest survey we don't need to do anything else...also behind my question about variables among those surveyed. From what I've heard, read and seen I didn't think enough hunters were being surveyed to get an accurate result, especially considering all the variable with in a state like Al.

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: truedouble] #684655
09/20/13 12:42 PM
09/20/13 12:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
Booner
49er  Offline
Booner
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Warrior River Country
You think maybe there's not enough deer being surveyed since that's what we're supposed to be conserving?

Surveying dead deer and hunters to determine how many deer we have??? Why?

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: bigt] #684681
09/20/13 01:07 PM
09/20/13 01:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
Frankie Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Frankie  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
Originally Posted By: bigt
Originally Posted By: Frankie
Originally Posted By: bigt
Deer numbers are definitly down in my area, but I am sure there are areas that are still loaded with deer. That is one of the reasons I can not understand why hunters have a problem with reporting what they kill(unless they are not following existing laws already) to help the state get accurate harvest numbers across the state. This way they can investigate more accurately when an area is showing something out of line for the rest of the state. I just do not get all the crying about making a phone call because everybody I know can not wait to call all their friends and family to tell them about the deer they just killed! So what's one more call?



it's mandatory , useless and uses funds that would better spent else where . plus it's added work for our GW's


I understand it is mandatory..... probably because hardly anyone would partcipate in the voluntary one that has been around for a while. As far as useless....how so? From what I have read not one biologist has said it would be useless data just some hunters. I can not argue that there may be better places to spend the money but heck that goes for the majority of money the Gov. spends. How is it added work for the GW?


it's another rule that will have to enforce as if they don't have enough .


the data they collect will be simply of DEAD deer . this will not tell the age , general health of the deer .

just knowing how many buck or does where killed will really tell you nothing more than just that . from this you could not relie on it to help with buck/doe ratio . as for trying to set seasons or bag limits from it would be useless and no better off than we are now , a guessing game .

i have for years now entered every deer i killed on line . if i thought it would help the management and well being of the herds i'd say ok .

i don't see any thing good going from this . mark my words on this , this data will come back to haunt some lease holders .


the main reason i don't like is the reason that 49'er keeps bringing up . the dcnr is over reaching it's power's .

Re: Opinion on decline of state deer harvest last 8 years. [Re: 49er] #684683
09/20/13 01:09 PM
09/20/13 01:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
Frankie Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Frankie  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
Originally Posted By: 49er
You think maybe there's not enough deer being surveyed since that's what we're supposed to be conserving?

Surveying dead deer and hunters to determine how many deer we have??? Why?


well they'll know how many are dead . knowing many and what is alive is where the problem comes in . lol

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