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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ] #613923
06/23/13 05:24 PM
06/23/13 05:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,831
If you only knew.....
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If you only knew.....

Originally Posted By: Matt Brock
Just not sure why so much effort is placed here instead of Montgomery.


Been wondering the same thing since I have been here....


Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves...

Confucius
Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ] #613941
06/23/13 06:27 PM
06/23/13 06:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
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Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matt Brock
So 49er, you don't trust me because you have interpreted what I am doing, while discharging my official duties, to be unlawful?

Like I said, take your case to the legislature with a good lawyer and change it.

I'm for the people keeping government accountable, and it is full of corruption, but this issue isn't worth fighting given the severity of other potentially world-changing issues at hand. It has already been pointed out by several people that scientific collections are given exceptions as to the methods used for taking animals. If that doesn't satisfy you then take your case elsewhere. It does no good to run up 14 pages of bickering and posting current laws on a public site. Write the commissioner. Write Chief Moody. Write the legislature. If you placed as much effort into those channels you could change the law....perhaps.



Matt,

I have presented my complaints as well as my proposals for improvements to all of those you named on multiple occasions. Your list falls short of the governor, the attorney general and even local enforcement authorities where the last illegal CAB meeting was held.

Some have led to changes, some have not. I don't make it a practice to toot my own horn when I feel like I've been instrumental in effecting needed changes.

This forum may or may not be useful in gaining public support for the positions I take. Often, it seems like a small group of members that are very vocal have succeeded in destroying any good I've tried to accomplish... only to discover later that others who are not vocal at all were paying attention and learning from the information I shared.

My purpose is not to offend anyone unless it's the truth that offends.

The truth in the matter of scientific collections of protected animals at night is that those who have given exceptions not already found within the law have no authority to add exceptions to the law. Only our legislature has that power as stated in the constitution of our state that you swore to support as an officer of the executive branch.

Constitution of Alabama 1901
Quote:
SECTION 43
Separation of powers.

In the government of this state, except in the instances in this Constitution hereinafter expressly directed or permitted, the legislative department shall never exercise the executive and judicial powers, or either of them; the executive shall never exercise the legislative and judicial powers, or either of them; the judicial shall never exercise the legislative and executive powers, or either of them; to the end that it may be a government of laws and not of men.






Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: Jack Fate] #614022
06/24/13 04:04 AM
06/24/13 04:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,664
Longwood, FL
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jlbuc10 Offline
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Don't know if the obvious has already been stated but if what the WFF if doing is illegal do you think a article would have been written in a magazine easily available to the public?

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: jlbuc10] #614024
06/24/13 04:07 AM
06/24/13 04:07 AM
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49er Offline
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Yes.

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: gobbler] #614142
06/24/13 08:43 AM
06/24/13 08:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,788
Pelham
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Ben2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: gobbler
Originally Posted By: Ben2
I have now been pm'd and have been told to back out of the post. Because I am not a wildlife biologist. Did not know that was a requirement to post I did not read that in the sign up rules. That is all


That's hilarious! May as well fess up who pm'd it shocked Especially to make sure no one thought it was me grin


I don't remember I erased it as soon as I read it cause I figured if I did not erase it it would respond in an unkind manner. Sorry wish I could provide more info.

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: 49er] #614166
06/24/13 09:27 AM
06/24/13 09:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,348
Prattville AL
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Originally Posted By: 49er
Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.


Not if they remain within the law.

But they won't will they?

And if you're trapping and killing hogs and doing it at night with their blessing after signing a statement that you will abide by all laws, then your word ain't worth any more than theirs.

Nobody should have to lie to do what needs to be done, Barry.

I'm not the problem and the people who raised the questions in this thread are not the problem. The problem is people at the DCNR and people who support them who don't mind lying in order to do whatever they want to do.

Until that changes, maybe you're right. I'll leave it to God to be your Judge, but I would read his Word carefully:

Holy Bible:
Revelation 21
Quote:
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”




Depredation permit agreement:



Every peace officer in this state takes this oath before assuming his duties:
Quote:
"I, …, solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the State of Alabama, so long as I continue a citizen thereof; and that I will faithfully and honestly discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, to the best of my ability. So help me God."



What is the difference in a common poacher and a man who will lie in order to use a depredation permit to violate the law with the blessings of the same men who swore to support our constitutions and to discharge their duties to the best of their ability, then arrest a poacher and let the liar go when they've violated the very same laws?

I don't trust any of the three.


Eddie,

I know you mean well. And because of that I will remain civil. My permit covers hogs and coyotes. Hogs are not native to Alabama and are a tremendous burden to landowners. And I am sure you do not fault the landowners for wanting to rid their properties of the hogs. So, your problem is with me for getting the permit and with the DCNR for issuing it.

So, here goes, show me in the law where it specifically says that non native invasive species are protected under the law. And we will start from there.

Last edited by ElkHunter; 06/24/13 09:28 AM.

Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614185
06/24/13 10:15 AM
06/24/13 10:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Code of Alabama 1975
Section 9-2-7
Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources - Powers and duties as to game, fish and seafood generally.
… (b) The commissioner is empowered to do all of the following:
… (8) To designate by name what animals shall be classed as game or fur-bearing animals and the time, manner, means, and devices for taking same.



ALABAMA REGULATIONS 2012-2013
GAME, FISH, FURBEARERS,AND OTHER WILDLIFE
______________________________________________________________
220-2-.06 Game Animals Designated
The following animals are hereby designated as game animals: Bear, Beaver, Coyote, Deer, Opossum, Rabbit, Raccoon, Squirrel, Nutria, Fox, Mountain Lion (Cougar), Groundhog, Bobcat, Red Wolf, Feral Swine (Wild Hog), except those feral swine reduced to the personal possession of a landowner or his agent, provided, however, that notwithstanding such reduction to personal possession, in the event such feral swine are hunted, they shall at such time of hunting be designated as game animals.
______________________________________________________________
220-2-.86 Feral Swine Regulation
All feral swine (wild hogs) found in the wild are hereby classed as game animals. The seasons and methods for taking feral swine will be as provided in Rule 220-2-.01. Once reduced to personal possession of the landowner or agent, feral swine will no longer be considered a game animal. However, feral swine will be considered a game animal at any time they are hunted. Notwithstanding any other regulation to the contrary, it shall be unlawful to transport feral swine alive beyond the boundaries of the property from which they are taken without a permit from the local conservation officer, or to release feral swine into any area of the state, except they may be released onto the property from which they were originally taken.



Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: Jack Fate] #614194
06/24/13 10:48 AM
06/24/13 10:48 AM
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Posts: 11,348
Prattville AL
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ElkHunter Offline
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So a feral hog is a game animal until it is killed. Then it is not. And for the record my permit for hogs doesn't read anything like the one you attached. But, I doubt that matters to you since Reg 220-2-.01 doesn't allow everyone to hunt them at night with weapons.

Now with that said, do you think landowners should have the right to protect their property from feral hogs?


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614199
06/24/13 10:52 AM
06/24/13 10:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
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Warrior River Country
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Constitution of Alabama 1901
Article 1 Declaration of Rights.

That the great, general, and essential principles of liberty and free government may be recognized and established, we declare:

SECTION 35
Objective of government.

That the sole object and only legitimate end of government is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and when the government assumes other functions it is usurpation and oppression.


AMENDMENT 597 RATIFIED

Sportsperson's Bill of Rights.
(a) All persons shall have the right to hunt and fish in this state in accordance with law and regulations.

(b) This amendment shall be known as the "Sportsperson's Bill of Rights."

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: Jack Fate] #614202
06/24/13 11:01 AM
06/24/13 11:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
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Prattville AL
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ElkHunter Offline
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But, does a landowner have the right to protect their land and their crops from feral hogs?


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614205
06/24/13 11:06 AM
06/24/13 11:06 AM
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Warrior River Country
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Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
But, does a landowner have the right to protect their land and their crops from feral hogs?


Yes, but within the limits set by law.

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: Jack Fate] #614206
06/24/13 11:07 AM
06/24/13 11:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
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Prattville AL
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ElkHunter Offline
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So, am I in violation of the law or the regs?


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614207
06/24/13 11:08 AM
06/24/13 11:08 AM
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Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Only if you hunt in an unlawful manner.


Examples:

Section 9-11-235
Taking, etc., of protected birds or animals, raccoons or opossums at night; nighttime hunting of foxes with dogs.
It shall be unlawful, except as to trapping as otherwise provided by law, for a person to take, capture, or kill, or attempt to take, capture, or kill any bird or animal protected by the laws of this state between sunset and daylight of the following day, except that the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources may by a duly promulgated regulation, allow the taking, catching, or killing of raccoons and opossums between sunset and daylight in any county or counties within the state. …

Section 9-11-244
Taking, etc., of protected birds or animals by means of bait.
No person at any time shall take, catch, kill or attempt to take, catch or kill any bird or animal protected by law or regulation of the State of Alabama by means, aid or use, directly or indirectly, of any bait …


Section 9-11-245
Unlawful methods of hunting birds or animals protected by law or regulation.
No person shall at any time make use of any pitfall, deadfall, baited field, cage, trap, net, pen, baited hook, snare, poison, explosive, or chemical for the purpose of injuring, capturing, or killing birds or animals protected by law or regulation of this state. This section shall not prevent the trapping of animals classified as fur-bearing animals by a duly licensed fur catcher. It shall be legal to use a scaffold for gun hunting of all legal game species except wild turkey and to use a scaffold for bow hunting of all legal game species.
(Acts 1951, No. 1001, p. 1672, §2; Acts 1975, No. 195, p. 681, §1; Acts 1995, No. 95-563, p. 1174, §1.)

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: Jack Fate] #614209
06/24/13 11:10 AM
06/24/13 11:10 AM
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Okay I hunt hogs at night via my permit. Am I hunting in an unlawful manner?


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614212
06/24/13 11:14 AM
06/24/13 11:14 AM
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Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Yes:

An administrative regulation must be consistent with the statute pursuant to which it was promulgated; it cannot usurp legislative power, and may neither subvert nor enlarge upon statutory policy. E.g., Ex parte Jones Mfg. Co., 589 So.2d 208 (Ala.1991);

Ex parte State Dep't of Human Res., 548 So.2d 176 (Ala.1988)(regulation must be consistent with the statute under which it is promulgated);

Ex parte City of Florence, 417 So.2d 191 (Ala.1982)
(administrative agency cannot usurp legislative powers or contravene statutes);

Alabama State Milk Control Bd. v. Graham, 250 Ala. 49, 33 So.2d 11 (1947) (regulation cannot subvert or enlarge upon statutory policy).



con•tra•vene: Violate the prohibition or order of (a law, treaty, or code of conduct).
Conflict with (a right, principle, etc.), esp. to its detriment.

sub•vert : To destroy completely; ruin

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614213
06/24/13 11:15 AM
06/24/13 11:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
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Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
Okay I hunt hogs at night via my permit. Am I hunting in an unlawful manner?


Does your permit require you to vow to abide by all laws and ordinances?

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614218
06/24/13 11:24 AM
06/24/13 11:24 AM
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Huntsviille, al.35816
Blackhawk Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
Okay I hunt hogs at night via my permit. Am I hunting in an unlawful manner?
Barry i feel based on what is given you are commissioned by the landowner as an agent to take feral swine on his property and with that thought in mind, yes you are good to go. not unlawful but within the limits of the law of the land. better than using claymore mines,

Last edited by Blackhawk; 06/24/13 11:27 AM.

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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: Jack Fate] #614222
06/24/13 11:30 AM
06/24/13 11:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,348
Prattville AL
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ElkHunter Offline
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No it does not.


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: ElkHunter] #614225
06/24/13 11:31 AM
06/24/13 11:31 AM
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Warrior River Country
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Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
No it does not.


Why do you need a permit?



How does this affect those permits?

Constitution of Alabama 1901

Quote:
SECTION 21
Suspension of laws.

That no power of suspending laws shall be exercised except by the legislature.


Quote:
SECTION 108
Suspension of general laws for benefit of individuals or private corporations; exemption of individuals or private corporations from operation of general laws.

The operation of a general law shall not be suspended for the benefit of any individual, private corporation, or association; nor shall any individual, private corporation or association be exempted from the operation of any general law except as in this article otherwise provided.



Why not just call a nuisance species a nuisance instead of game?

Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF [Re: 49er] #614238
06/24/13 12:03 PM
06/24/13 12:03 PM
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Posts: 52,030
Round ‘bout there
C
Clem Offline
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Posts: 52,030
Round ‘bout there
Quote:
Why not just call a nuisance species a nuisance instead of game?


A valid question from day one regarding feral swine.


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"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

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