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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Jack Fate]
#613329
06/22/13 12:31 PM
06/22/13 12:31 PM
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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49er, I'm cooking supper, but I will answer your question later.
Last edited by Matt Brock; 06/22/13 12:31 PM.
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Jack Fate]
#613355
06/22/13 01:21 PM
06/22/13 01:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,161
alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,161
alabama
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Ben2, I did some "collecting" before I was a GW and I can assure you there is no "FUN" in it, damn hard, nasty, hot, work.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: ]
#613357
06/22/13 01:22 PM
06/22/13 01:22 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 678
Florence, AL
Jack Fate
OP
4 point
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OP
4 point
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 678
Florence, AL
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Also, we conduct the repro surveys only on lands we have permission to be, or on WMAs. I haven't read the AON article. Who was the author? Mike Bolton wrote the article. I'm sure the project is probably needed to collect data etc. The only problem I have with it is that it breaks the law to do it. If they want to do this, change the law.
I Have Stood Next To Death, and People Liked Him Better
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Ben2]
#613366
06/22/13 01:41 PM
06/22/13 01:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
bigt
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
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The other thought I would have would for them to be at processors during january and xheck for fetuses in already shot does but that may make two much sense Well one problem with that is in southwest Alabama there would be no fetuses to check because our does are not bred yet.
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Jack Fate]
#613367
06/22/13 01:42 PM
06/22/13 01:42 PM
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Eddie and Jack, on the application for scientific collection permits the following is stated.....
Specifically, General Scientific
Collection Permits and/or State-Listed Species Scientific Collection Permits are for
collecting scientific data (1) on species for which no harvest season is provided, (2) on species
outside the provided harvest seasons and/or when such collections cannot be made during
the regular hunting, fishing or trapping seasons, or (3) by the use of equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license.
To me, that answers your question. We are conducting scientific research on game animals during a time period in which there is no open season, and with methods that are not normally permitted. No laws are broken. Case closed.
I really don't like the use of your term "hunting" at night by WFF personnel. We aren't hunting in the sense of attempting to take game for personal use or consumption. It is legit science. And like BHAMFRED stated it is work. It isn't fun at all. It was the first time or two, but it quickly becomes work, and long hours. I don't know of anyone who enjoys getting in the truck to conduct a night-time operation. We are usually glad it is over.
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Jack Fate]
#613369
06/22/13 01:45 PM
06/22/13 01:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,161
alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,161
alabama
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I've never known of any WFF personell killing deer at any time for herd reduction.
USDA, however, I know of several instances of them doing so on private lands.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Ben2]
#613371
06/22/13 01:48 PM
06/22/13 01:48 PM
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Ben, it's not that easy. We don't have the man power or hours to roam properties in search of fawns that are bedded in thick cover. Not going to happen. At the time fawns are hitting the ground they can weigh from under 3 lbs up to 9 lbs at birth. Catching a fawn is not a good way to determine when they were born. I wouldn't want to jeopardize their survival by messing with them anyway. Fetus size during the open season is so small you wouldn't be able to accurately judge their conception date. The few exceptions to this are in areas with an unusually early breeding season, like Black Warrior WMA. Why not just catch fawns to check the conception date as opposed to killing the doe and fetuses. I would think landownwers know when fawns start hitting the ground and they are pretty easy to catch for a week or so, I would also think you could use game cams to estimate size and age of fawns fairly easily if it was done right. Just some thoughts. May not be as fun as shooting them. The other thought I would have would for them to be at processors during january and xheck for fetuses in already shot does but that may make two much sense
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: BhamFred]
#613377
06/22/13 01:53 PM
06/22/13 01:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,187
South Alabama
gobbler
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,187
South Alabama
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You would be amazed at what a State or Fed collection permit will allow you to do. I had both for several years and could be in possession of a dead bald eagle if I could justify it.
You know how to post pictures of woods burning. Take a picture of your permits and share them with us. Like this:  See how you vow to abide by all laws and ordinances? You wouldn't tell a lie and use the permit to break the law would you? Would if I had seen them inside 20 years. Haven't done it in a while 9r. Recon why this was in the definition of a "scientific collection permit": (3) by the use of equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license. How do you think they catch turkeys for research - cannon nets - NOT legal method How about deer - various nets, cannon, drop and helicopter - NOT legal method How about quail - funnel traps baited with corn and checked AFTER dark - NOT legal method Your out of your league here Why not just catch fawns to check the conception date as opposed to killing the doe and fetuses. I would think landownwers know when fawns start hitting the ground and they are pretty easy to catch for a week or so, I would also think you could use game cams to estimate size and age of fawns fairly easily if it was done right. Just some thoughts. May not be as fun as shooting them. The other thought I would have would for them to be at processors during january and xheck for fetuses in already shot does but that may make two much sense Any idea how much that would cost, how many people it would take and how unsuccessful it would be to get a large sample size? Not to mention the stress of fawns by chasing them down. Ben2, I did some "collecting" before I was a GW and I can assure you there is no "FUN" in it, damn hard, nasty, hot, work. You got that right - I collected June/July for several years in the late 80's and 90's under research permits as well some since. It is NO fun.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: ]
#613382
06/22/13 02:03 PM
06/22/13 02:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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Eddie and Jack, on the application for scientific collection permits the following is stated.....
Specifically, General Scientific
Collection Permits and/or State-Listed Species Scientific Collection Permits are for
collecting scientific data (1) on species for which no harvest season is provided, (2) on species
outside the provided harvest seasons and/or when such collections cannot be made during
the regular hunting, fishing or trapping seasons, or (3) by the use of equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license.
To me, that answers your question. We are conducting scientific research on game animals during a time period in which there is no open season, and with methods that are not normally permitted. No laws are broken. Case closed.
I really don't like the use of your term "hunting" at night by WFF personnel. We aren't hunting in the sense of attempting to take game for personal use or consumption. It is legit science. And like BHAMFRED stated it is work. It isn't fun at all. It was the first time or two, but it quickly becomes work, and long hours. I don't know of anyone who enjoys getting in the truck to conduct a night-time operation. We are usually glad it is over.  Who wrote that Matt? The legislature or the commissioner? ... and who decided to define hunting as follows: DEFINITION OF HUNTING
Hunting includes pursuing, shooting, killing, capturing and trapping wild animals, wild fowl, wild birds, and all lesser acts, such as disturbing, harrying or worrying, or placing, setting, drawing, or using any device used to take wild animals, wild fowl, wild birds, whether they result in taking or not, and includes every act of assistance to any person in taking or attempting to take wild animals, wild fowl, or wild birds. Was it our legislature or your boss? As a peace officer of the state, the courts have stated that you are expected to know the laws you are charged with enforcing just as citizens are expected to know the laws that affect the exercise of our rights and duties. I still have seen no persuasive evidence that collection of protected animals by DCNR employees at night for scientific purposes is excluded under C.O.A. Section 9-11-235. Again: Section 9-2-6
Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources - Powers and duties generally.
... In the performance of such functions and duties and in the exercise of such powers and authorities, the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources and all other officers and employees of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources shall, however, be subject to all legal restrictions, limitations and conditions and penalties, civil and criminal, with respect to the performance of such functions and duties and the exercise of such powers and authorities.
(Acts 1939, No. 162, p. 255, § 7; Code 1940, T. 8, §6.) And in relation to the commissioner's depredation permits: Section 13A-2-23
Criminal liability based upon behavior of another - Complicity.
A person is legally accountable for the behavior of another constituting a criminal offense if, with the intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense:
(1) He procures, induces or causes such other person to commit the offense; or
(2) He aids or abets such other person in committing the offense; or
(3) Having a legal duty to prevent the commission of the offense, he fails to make an effort he is legally required to make.
(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §415.)
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Jack Fate]
#613387
06/22/13 02:12 PM
06/22/13 02:12 PM
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Eddie, I reckon you interpret the laws and regs different than I do. The Commissioner has said we will conduct repro surveys, and thus far we have. I have no idea who wrote it. I will follow orders until I am asked to break the law or my own personal code of ethics. As of now, according to our current laws and regs, in my belief, we are conducting legal scientific research. Take your case to the Commissioner. I can't help you any more than I have.
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: ]
#613390
06/22/13 02:19 PM
06/22/13 02:19 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 678
Florence, AL
Jack Fate
OP
4 point
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OP
4 point
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 678
Florence, AL
|
Eddie and Jack, on the application for scientific collection permits the following is stated.....
Specifically, General Scientific
Collection Permits and/or State-Listed Species Scientific Collection Permits are for
collecting scientific data (1) on species for which no harvest season is provided, (2) on species
outside the provided harvest seasons and/or when such collections cannot be made during
the regular hunting, fishing or trapping seasons, or (3) by the use of equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license.
To me, that answers your question. We are conducting scientific research on game animals during a time period in which there is no open season, and with methods that are not normally permitted. No laws are broken. Case closed.
When did the DCNR/Commisioner receive the authority to supercede a state law? It is my understanding that they are supposed to work within the law, not above it. Like I said I do not have a problem with the basic premise of what is being done. It may be necessary thing to get an accurate picture of the conception dates, etc. but just have the law changed to allow the taking of protected animals at night. I really don't like the use of your term "hunting" at night by WFF personnel. We aren't hunting in the sense of attempting to take game for personal use or consumption. It is legit science. And like BHAMFRED stated it is work. It isn't fun at all. It was the first time or two, but it quickly becomes work, and long hours. I don't know of anyone who enjoys getting in the truck to conduct a night-time operation. We are usually glad it is over. I also did not mean to imply that what was being done was for fun or sport. I understand it is work.
I Have Stood Next To Death, and People Liked Him Better
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: Jack Fate]
#613399
06/22/13 02:41 PM
06/22/13 02:41 PM
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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Matt Brock
Unregistered
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It's always been understood by the powers that be that anytime scientific collections are being conducted on any animal the methods typically referred to as illegal are used for efficiency and timeliness. Researchers are granted exceptions under current law. Obviously I am not helping either of you, so call the legislature.
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: bigt]
#613441
06/22/13 03:44 PM
06/22/13 03:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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bigt, Why don't you give us your interpretation then? Start here: Section 9-2-6
Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources - Powers and duties generally.
... In the performance of such functions and duties and in the exercise of such powers and authorities, the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources and all other officers and employees of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources shall, however, be subject to all legal restrictions, limitations and conditions and penalties, civil and criminal, with respect to the performance of such functions and duties and the exercise of such powers and authorities.
(Acts 1939, No. 162, p. 255, § 7; Code 1940, T. 8, §6.)
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Re: Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF
[Re: bigt]
#613457
06/22/13 04:15 PM
06/22/13 04:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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I am not a lawyer and do not know all the other laws that might or might not supercede the one quoted, but if I felt as strongly as you seem to I would definitely be finding me lawyer otherwise your just pissing in the wind and nothing will change. If you're too dumb to read plain English and understand what it means, then you might want to consider cutting back on giving those who can advice on what they should do.
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