I finally found a club that doesn't by in to the idea of shooting every doe you see. 15 doe tags on 3600ac and no does on food plots, last year i think they killed about 9 does. I have seen more bucks and better bucks than any of the previous "QDM" clubs I have been in. It is nice to see deer while hunting and Saturday mornings don't sound like the battle at horse shoe bend.

Any other clubs letting most of the does walk?

I am not saying QDM principles don't work. I think it all depends on what your objectives are for the property.

QDM is like global warming its a bunch of bullshit. When I start seeing a browes line on the trees where I hunt I'll shoot a few more does

I hunt 1400 acres with four other people.We shoot two does per family every year or try to.When the rut starts we see lots of bucks. I am convinced they come from other properties where they slaughter there does every year. No Does No Bucks.Just my opinion.

do you hunt in shelby county and if so what club

x2

First time in this club. We have been mowing them down. 35 does and 3 8 points killed so far. A few other does shot but not found. Can't see a buck to save my life nor can my friend. I am sure the hunting pressure is mostly the reason. Well see if it makes the bucks move more to look for a doe during rut.

I never shoot my does, there are enough neighboring landowners that do this for me. I usually wait until the last two weeks of season and then start to look for horns. My does have grown accustomed to knowing I am around and when the bucks come calling, the does bring them along. I hunt land that is really pressured by surrounding clubs, both being dog hunting clubs, and I wait for dog season to go out. That is when the bucks start to move again. I don't know the downfall of shooting does, but I do know the pitfalls of running dogs!

We have 4 different properties. On one we shoot 6 pt or better bucks only. You can hunt there and see does everytime you hunt. Our biggest bucks are normally killed there durning the rut.

I agree,when I started hunting and was in my first club they didn't allow any does to be killed. You always saw deer, and their were still big deer killed every year.I'm not saying QDM doesn't work I just think a lot of times people go overboard with it.To me hunting is suppose to be fun,and it's more fun when your seeing deer.

So you'd rather see 30 or 40 deer and kill a 110-class 6-point as opposed to seeing six and one of those is a 150-class 10 point?

Where is that guarantee that if you shoot all the does you can that you will have 150-inch, 10 pt bucks roaming your proerty to just shoot at will?????

THAT is the propaganda that was used to help change the State of Mind of the older AL deer hunters. It was/is a fallacy and has been disproved numerous times over.

There is a definite balance and a need for doe harvest. But, it is WAY over-rated as a Big Buck cure-all!

I have several deer on my wall that were killed during the heyday of deer populations here in SW AL. And I DO miss seeing 15-25 deer an afternoon....even if the majority were does. The days hunted to mature bucks harvested ratio is still about the same. Just a WHOLE lot less sightings of deer in the time between the harvests.

yes,i would.cause them antlers taste the same.. don't get me wrong i like see the big bucks,but that's not what hunting is all about to me.. all the luck in the world to the trophy hunter..just don't impose it on me..i'll shot a doe before a buck any day of the week...

You can let all the does walk, or you can kill all of the ones you see, but neither will help you grow larger bucks. Only letting little ones go will help, and I haven't seen many people in Alabama that will truly let young deer walk. Maybe for a while, but usually go back to killing, because killing is the only way a lot of people gauge their success. Just my two cents!

I grew up in Colbert County and I remember going hunting with my dad for many years and never ever seeing a deer. This was in the late 60's and early 70's. I was taught that if you killed a doe you were one of the ones whom a special place in Satan's domain was reserved for. Those old traditions still hold true to my dad and the old timers who helped establish the herd we have today in North Alabama. Without restraint and foresight to let the does walk, we would still be squirrel and rabbit hunting instead of chasing deer. I just can't shoot the mammas like some people can. To me the ultimate test of a hunter's ability is to consistently kill mature bucks every year. A person cannot consistently kill mature deer and kill off the does at the same time. My daddy always said "Wherever you have women, there will always be a few old men hanging around". Just my two cents worth.

Sure you can. It happens in a lot of places where doe management is pretty strong and intense, the herd population isn't running rampant in great numbers and young bucks are allowed to walk.

Just allowing little bucks to get older is not the only factor in management. I'd say that may be the key or a key, but it's not the only one among several that should be used.

Clem,


For the sake of debate, can you cite me a few REAL LIFE examples of properties here in AL with intense doe harvest and successful mature buck harvest on a regular basis?

I would then like for you to tell me the property size, hunter/acre ratio and doe and buck per sq. mi harvested.

I think that you will be surprised when you start looking.
Extreme doe harvest and maintaining a low deer density are not only over-rated; but misrepresented statistically!

Just my opinion, but it is formed after years of paying close attention to data.

What do you consider to be a mature buck and a regular basis?

I'm not saying every buck will become a 150-class. If someone's satisfied with shooting basket-rack 6s and a "great" 130-class 8-point, then yeah ... more could be done and it involves management.

When you settle for what you have, you'll always have what you settle for.

I remember those days. A very good example of the two extremes of deer hunting. Myself, I love to eat a good smoked deer tenderloin. I hunt to eat it, not to hang it on the wall and admire it. I hunt family owned land so I do not have to worry with club rules. I shoot the first 2 or 3 deer I can get in the crosshairs unless they are buttons or spotted. Once I have enough in the freezer, I will hunt for horns just for the sport. We have old bucks on our property but to be honest my impact on the doe's/bucks is not great enough to sway a herd one way of the other.

The other extreme is people hunt for the challenge of finding that record buck. That's ok too. Thats the sport in it and perfectly fine.

To each his own, just don't bad mouth either side as they are content and happy in the way they hunt.

same thing i said.you just said it better...
x2

I remember those days. A very good example of the two extremes of deer hunting. Myself, I love to eat a good smoked deer tenderloin. I hunt to eat it, not to hang it on the wall and admire it. I hunt family owned land so I do not have to worry with club rules. I shoot the first 2 or 3 deer I can get in the crosshairs unless they are buttons or spotted. Once I have enough in the freezer, I will hunt for horns just for the sport. We have old bucks on our property but to be honest my impact on the doe's/bucks is not great enough to sway a herd one way of the other.

The other extreme is people hunt for the challenge of finding that record buck. That's ok too. Thats the sport in it and perfectly fine.

To each his own, just don't bad mouth either side as they are content and happy in the way they hunt.

the population has to be keep in check some if not they become pest . i could not have a garden last year , i'm fixing that problem this season . some body next to your managed land might be fixing their problem by killing what ever they see .

just a general comment !!!!!!!

Good Posting

4.5yr+ is what I would consider mature.

But, that is actually a moot point when discussing antler scores. Not all 4.5's are 'trophy-size'.

And, for the record, a 130-inch 8 pt IS a good deer; especially in AL.

But, back to my post, I think that if you look at actual harvest data on AL properties.......you'll be surprised at what you find. Low hunter pressure and intense habitat manipulation, along with allowing bucks to reach old age, results in CONSISTENT harvest of trophy antlered mature bucks; not extreme doe harvest.

Yall check out: www.aonmag.com/article.php?id=2077&cid=189
(The coyote factor- taking a bite out of deer)

I think its dang near impossible to kill a mature +3.5yr old buck on land thats hunted hard outside of bow season and the rut. By not killing a pile of does your chances of killing a mature buck outside of the rut goes up considerably IMO.

My wife and I love venison also, so I have a couple separate places that I bow hunt for does.

In one of Chris Cooks publications he said that "heavy doe harvest does nothing for antler growth on some properties".

Some places will never grow 150" bucks no matter how well managed it is IMO. Some places got 'em, some don't.

Yup, spring creek hc

Got a pile of them. Our clients run from don't kill many does to kill every one they see. Our prescription for doe harvest depends on 1) habitat 2)deer density 3) harvest objectives. However, bottom line is those properties that have good habitat and low deer numbers kill the best bucks regularly. Some folks don't care to intensely manage and that is fine with me. On one property I work on, they kill a TON of does and few bucks but the bucks are nearly always in the 140's. I take pictures of deer like this without even lifting my gun because they are COMMON














Not necessarily so. The above property has intense pressure due to intense doe harvest. Depends on what you need!



Sorry, just ain't buying it. I could kill 10-15 3.5 yr old + bucks a year (based on what I pass a year) and nearly all the properties I hunt are WELL managed and pretty heavily hunted and have a LOT of does harvested.

Sorry, I ain't buying it either!



Give us the specific examples:

I have a strong hunch that what you consider 'heavily hunted' and what the AVERAGE hunter considers 'heavily hunted' are 2 totally different things.

I figured you were going to chime in. LOL

And I know that you manage some exclusive properties. The simple fact that the property owners can afford to hire you to manage their property denotes this. I am quite certain that the properties contain nice deer. I am also quite certain that the habitat is really good and the carrying capacity and reproductive capacities are really high.

But, it has very little to do with the AVERAGE hunter and the property that he hunts here in AL.

We lease 738 acres. We have eight members. We try to shoot 10-15 does per year. We typically kill 6 - 10 bucks a year, and about half of these bucks are 3.5 years old or older "wallhanger" deer. We have high hunting pressure. We shoot does. We try not to shoot young bucks. We kill a pretty high number of mature bucks for the size property we have.

If you don't shoot does, you will see more deer. That's for two reasons: 1) you'll simply have more deer, and 2) with less intrusion from shooting, wandering around in the woods with a flashlight looking for deer, dragging deer out, and driving in to fields, etc. to haul deer out, the deer will feel more comforable in greenfields, and in daytime movement in general. If you don't shoot does, on most pieces of property in Alabama, you'll very quickly have more deer than the land can sustain in prime condition. Just because they have enough food to survive doesn't mean they have enough food to maximize body size and antler size. So if you don't shoot does, your bucks will be smaller.

You need to base your management on what your goals are. For some people, if they kill one or two 130-150" deer off their property in a year, they'll be very happy. Those folks need to shoot a lot of does, and they need to be very selective in the bucks they do shoot. For folks that want to see the most deer, they shouldn't shoot any does. But, do it long enough, and you'll have some issues. Having too many deer negatively impacts their health, and greatly increases the chance that there will be die offs.

For most folks, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

And the idea that you can't kill a mature buck if you shoot does is absolutely idiotic.

I've been in quite a few clubs with differing management rules. The one where I saw the most deer was in south Tuscaloosa County. It had the potential to be a great place for killing large numbers of 3.5-4.5 year old wallhanger deer. It had fertile soil, plenty of fields for planting, etc. But, instead of it being a great place for killing "nice" bucks, there were usually only one or two of "nice" deer killed every year. That is because the buck criteria was 4 point or better, and does were not allowed to be shot. It wasn't uncommon to see 20 deer in a hunt, and on a good day you might see 40. But, in a season of hunting, only one or two members would see a wallhanger deer. And that is because there weren't any there to speak of, and most that were killed traveled in from other properties during the rut. On that property you would see a ton of does, and there were usually 30-40 bucks killed each year. But they were almost all 1.5-2.5 year old small bucks.

I've also hunted places that were ruthless on the doe harvest. You usually wouldn't see many deer, and you would see as many bucks as does. But, when a buck got shot, it was a good one.

For me, the answer is in the middle. I want to see deer. But, I also want to have a good shot at killing a nice buck every year. And to have the best chance at this, we need to kill about 1/4 of the does off our property every year, and try to only shoot 3.5 year old and older bucks.

It works well for us, though there is always room for improvement.

Couldn't resist!!

While it may be exclusive and intensive, it has everything to do with the average hunter. The equation is still the same and simple. What varies is how you go about it and what you have to work with (as well as what your goals are). Here are the rules:
1) Good soils produce better deer
2) Good habitat produces healthier deer
3) Overabundant deer herds reduce habitat quality
4) Good habitat is capable of maintaining MUCH larger populations than poor habitat
4) Maintaining a deer population at a level where their browsing has no effect on the habitat allows all deer to grow to their potential
5) Not shooting young bucks allows some of them to grow old, aka, shooting young bucks guarantees they will not become mature

Obviously, some can manage the habitat and some not. Some of those that can, do not understand what good habitat is. Some properties, even with good habitat management, can only sustain low deer numbers in a healthy condition. On really crappy habitat, deer numbers that only provide a deer sighting every 3 hunts may be overpopulated. On other properties, the habitat might be able to sustain a population that provides 10-15 deer sightings per hunt and a 50/50 buck doe ratio.

[quote=SnapperSlapper][/quote]

I would say average of a doe per 50 acres (some more some less) harvest yields the same shooting pressure whether you are on a 50 acre property or a 5,000 acre property. One property has had so many does we recommended 200 does to be killed on 2,000 acres They didn't get there and the population crashed - bucks and does died from overpopulation and the habitat was significantly damaged. It is recovering (both habitat and deer population), but took a few years.

I stand behind Hogwild 100%, everything i wanted to say he said it. Dont know him at all. but he knows what hes talkin bout!

Bear Bryant used to say he could take his and beat your'n, and then take your'n and beat his.

Gobbler probably does manage some high-dollar land. But I'll bet he or any other management biologist could take your "average hunter" land, make recommendations and see the same or similar results if the "average hunter" would follow the advice.

If you're content shooting 120-class 8-pointers and no does, fine. You'll shoot them for a long time and have a few occasional good bucks. But I'd bet on good land with habitat, by shooting more does and letting those "nice" 8's walk another year some of them would they'd be "Wow" 10's or "Holy chit!" bigger bucks a year or two later.

No doubt about that, Clem.

But, the 'Average hunter' does not have the Time, Property, nor Finances to manage at that level.

As a matter of fact, MOST AL hunters do not have the ability to manage the habitat on the property that they hunt beyond planting a very small percentage of the property in food plots.

I am not against shooting does; and I am not for shooting young bucks.

But, I have common sense and realize the limitations of the 'Average Hunter'.

BTW, score up those bucks that gobbler posted.

There ain't no 150's in that group. Just good representative bucks for their age classes.

I can not disagree with what gobbler says period, thats what he does. So who do I need to call for a reasonably priced membership where 140" bucks are so common? haha
All the clubs I have been in lease land from timber companys, they control the habitat. They manage for trees not deer.
I have been in several clubs in the $1500 range and my current club cost $1175. I can't justify spending a lot of money for a club, and I'm content killing 120"-130" and seeing deer than hoping for giant deer and seeing nothing.

No, the average hunter doesn't have the self control to manage on that level.

Here is one from a small tract in Shelby Co that I have hunted for 4 years and never killed a deer on. The first year I got pics of 2-3 deer on my plots and never saw a deer while on stand. Now I get pics of 4-8 deer on my plots and have see them regularly while on stand. Not a giant but I would be happy to kill him. I don't think the property is over populated, my plots get visited very frequently but are not over-browsed nor are there any noticeable browse lines on the property.

I guess if I shot about 10 does his right G3 would be in better shape. haha J/k

"But, the 'Average hunter' does not have the Time, Property, nor Finances to manage at that level."

"No, the average hunter doesn't have the self control to manage on that level."

--

I'd say probably both of these are correct, depending on the person and/or club.

I agree with that, but only to the extent that it is irrelevant when discussing habitat manipulation and hunter pressure.

Why don't some of you guys that don't believe what I am posting provide us a list of affordable hunting clubs that provide this type of hunting experience???

They are around, and I am lucky enough to be a member of one.
But, I have looked long and hard to find it; and it is a VERY welcome change to my past 'Hunting Club' experiences!
And although managed very well, and the fact that it is a great group of guys, it would NOT be what it is without the large, exclusive properties surrounding it. We are lucky enough to reap a lot of the benefits of their work and lack of hunting presssure.
I would venture a strong guess that with the numbers Slapper posted, he is in a similar situation.......good neighbors.

I don't take pictures of live 150" bucks, I shoot them and take pictures on the ground

And, you will note that I said "I take pictures of deer like this without even lifting my gun because they are COMMON", not "I take pictures of 130-140" deer because they are common" Mature bucks are never "common" in sightings even though they may have a good representation in the population.



I don't know about any other management biologist

You and I do not disagree on much. There are properties that need does harvested and those that don't. Objectives range from "I like to see lots of deer and don't care how big a buck is" to "we want to manage for big bucks". Some folks may want to have as many deer as possible (even to the point of having overpopulated, habitat damaging populations) and kill every 1.5 and 2.5 buck they see. I have no problem with that either - Free Choice - although I have no sympathy for them when they say they never see big bucks.

The problem I have had with this thread is:









While there are a lot of BS fallacies around, the above are a lot more off base than QDM which does not espouse shooting every doe you see, just maintaining a balance.

Got a good example:
One property I hunt is @ 350 acres on good dirt in an area known to produce some very nice deer. We have hunted it for 6 years now and the folks before us slaughtered every 1.5 yr old buck that moved. I saw their gut pile the last year they had it and it was full of little racks from spikes to basket 8's...all thrown away . I don't know if they shot does but the population was not high. In the last 6 years 2 friends of mine killed a doe each and one's daughter killed a doe. That's IT! I felt that the population was not in need of doe harvest, coyotes were killing all the does we need, the habitat is in good shape and no browse on common browse plants, and the bucks that were there needed age. HOWEVER, to refute some of the above quotes and the "pressure" concepts, this place is also LOW pressure. We have 7 stands and 5 good greenfields. The most hunters we have had at one time was 3 stands and we have hunted it 5 days so far this year. Put my wife and daughter out this afternoon and they saw 2 spikes, a 6 pt and one doe, I saw a 2 yr 8 pt. We will hunt probably 15 + times total in the last of Dec/first of Jan and last of Jan. Pretty common annual pressure. I have had pics of 4.5-6.5 yr old deer for a couple years and usually 2-3 130'-140's each year. NO-ONE has EVER laid eyes on one. EVER This is some of y'alls prescription for big-buck harvest...Low hunting pressure and no doe harvest. We see plenty of does and 1-3 yr old bucks while hunting, don't spook them, etc. Now you might say we are crappy hunters, however all of us that hunt it all have good deer on the wall. My point - there is NO MAGIC BULLET to kill good bucks. Not doe harvest or lack of, not QDM, not foodplots, not woodland stands, not not shooting yearling bucks. None of these things will, in and of itself, yield mature bucks in front of a gun. Mature bucks tend to get slippery as they age, however, you have to grow a few to get to see one. And, yes, our ROR on this property sucks

Growing big bucks is WAAYYYYYY easier than consistently killing them!

Amen, on that we could not agree more

Again I can't disagree with gobbler, but most of the clubs I've been in have all shot piles of does and for the month of dec no one sees a deer at all. I would see deer every sit during bow season. This club Im in now gets hunted every day but I still see deer 9/10 sits and still see plenty of bucks. I enjoy this club more than the others. It's all about finding a club that meets your objectives.

Another example on the opposite end of the spectrum. A couple of the deer on my wall come from quail plantations. Many of these persecute deer...relentlessly - shooting them out of the truck, shooting every doe they can find on fields, woods, anywhere they can because they compete with the good quail food plants (legumes) and the bird dogs like to chase them. An excellent example of heavy shooting pressure (in addition to the quail shooting and all the activity surrounding it, running dogs, etc). They usually don't mess with the bucks and the quality and quantity of bucks on these places is superb. Great place to see and kill superior quality, mature bucks. If you were to tell me I HAD to go kill a mature buck tomorrow, I would go to one of these "high pressure, low deer density" places. Go figure

I wish we would let them walk. Every deer that steps out on a plot has been shot at this year!! I have seen a grand total of 1 deer on our club this year, and I jumped this yearling this afternoon.

I wish we would let them walk. Every deer that steps out on a plot has been shot at this year!! I have seen a grand total of 1 deer on our club this year, and I jumped this yearling this afternoon.

I truly believe that is why they start looking up in the trees as soon as the approach the food plots.They Remember their last visit.

If you miss a deer with a high powered rifle on a food plot with no obstructions, you need to go back to the shooting range or get a good shooting stick as a rest. That's inexcusable.

Shooting does is not the problem. Shooting them on food plots is tho.I don't think you can kill all the does. There are nocturnal does just as nocturnal bucks. once you start hammering does on food ploits they just feed there at night.
They should be allowed to feel safe on plots. This will have them up and moving and allow you to kill them on the way to the plot. Someone that has to sit on a plot to kill a deer has no hunting skills anyway.

No difference in killing them on a planted green field and killing them in the woods under an oak laden with acorns and killing them in an open pasture where they feed or killing them in a cutover sprouting new growth?

Clem,have you ever been in a club that didn't shoot them in plots ? I doubt it. It does make a difference. Many on here can tell you that.

I've been to clubs that did and did not, lodges that did and did not, and I've shot deer in fields where deer came out of the woods and sniffed the dead deer and continued eating.

I just don't believe it's the magic panacea to keep food plots sacred b/c Bambi and MommyDoe won't come out if a doe got shot there three weeks ago. Maybe so. But I'm not interested in seeing 39 deer every time I sit in a stand or house, either.

Clem your being a guest at multiple places has left you clueless to the work in management.When you only show up to "shoot something" You really don't see what else is happening on the land. You see a very small part of the operation to make your opinions on. I didn't plant kill plots I planted for the benefit of the wildlife. I do my killing in the woods. When does feel safe in a plot they will pull bucks in with them during the rut.
If you shoot them in a plot full of other does they tend to go nocturnal. They see other deer being killed. It has nothing to do with smelling a place where another deer was killed.

Again, i think it is a matter of scale. If you kill 2 or 3 does out of a food plot, you don't "damage" daylight use much. If, everytime a doe sticks it's head out of the woodline it is shot, not many deer will use the field. One of my best bucks was killed with a dead doe in the field and one of the best typicals I have seen killed in AL was killed in a foodplot that had 6 or 7 does killed out of it that year. However, I would not expect to see a mature buck in a greenfield in daylight on a field that is shot hard. Shooting a doe out of a greenfield is not sacrilegious, neither is shooting a spike

Agree with Gobbler. It is about scale and overall pressure. Take your does early off the plots, then let em sit. They will come back.

This year, because of the drought and little to no acorns, I'm concerned that we haven't taken out enough does on our place. I honestly think it will affect the quality of deer next year.
Honeysuckle that we fertilized in March, was eaten down by June and it didn't come back. (Like it should have with the lack of rain during the summer and fall.)
The coyotes didn't do much to help on the numbers, either.
Normally, we kill around 10 to 15 does per season on 940 acres.
I know each area has different conditions, but since the acorn crop and lack of browse in most areas of the state are going to affect the condition of the herd, I bet that by February, lots of us will wish we had fewer deer on our properties.
We could actually have a browse line later in the winter.
I realize that I'm not speaking for everyone, but this is my opinion.

We'll agree to disagree, Perch.

I just don't believe it's that big of a deal. They get pressure from everywhere for 3 months, and then coyotes are on their butts along with bucks chasing them during the rut. Does are going to get hounded all over the place whether it's in a manicured food "safe" zone or somewhere else.

i never have trouble with the does i kill going nocturnal , they are dead . neither do i wait for the field to fill up with deer . if you going to thin does , thin does . don't hunt for bucks and thin does at the same time on a field.

i've killed 5 does off the same little spot of ground and the rest ain't missed a beat .

trick is only educate the ones you kill .

if i'm in a field and a doe comes in early i kill it and leave. i never shot one from a group.

in the woods i'll kill single does or from a group . if from a group i'll just set and most times (if early) another will come back and i'll shot her too . the futher you are away the better the chance one will come back. i have shot one and the rest just stand there if the one i shot dropped. i have doubled up shooting from groups a bunch of times .

group = 5 or 6 deer . never shot the first lone deer that comes out in a field , good bet it a young buck . made sure it a doe .