the population has to be keep in check some if not they become pest . i could not have a garden last year , i'm fixing that problem this season . some body next to your managed land might be fixing their problem by killing what ever they see .

just a general comment !!!!!!!

Good Posting

4.5yr+ is what I would consider mature.

But, that is actually a moot point when discussing antler scores. Not all 4.5's are 'trophy-size'.

And, for the record, a 130-inch 8 pt IS a good deer; especially in AL.

But, back to my post, I think that if you look at actual harvest data on AL properties.......you'll be surprised at what you find. Low hunter pressure and intense habitat manipulation, along with allowing bucks to reach old age, results in CONSISTENT harvest of trophy antlered mature bucks; not extreme doe harvest.

Yall check out: www.aonmag.com/article.php?id=2077&cid=189
(The coyote factor- taking a bite out of deer)

I think its dang near impossible to kill a mature +3.5yr old buck on land thats hunted hard outside of bow season and the rut. By not killing a pile of does your chances of killing a mature buck outside of the rut goes up considerably IMO.

My wife and I love venison also, so I have a couple separate places that I bow hunt for does.

In one of Chris Cooks publications he said that "heavy doe harvest does nothing for antler growth on some properties".

Some places will never grow 150" bucks no matter how well managed it is IMO. Some places got 'em, some don't.

Yup, spring creek hc

Got a pile of them. Our clients run from don't kill many does to kill every one they see. Our prescription for doe harvest depends on 1) habitat 2)deer density 3) harvest objectives. However, bottom line is those properties that have good habitat and low deer numbers kill the best bucks regularly. Some folks don't care to intensely manage and that is fine with me. On one property I work on, they kill a TON of does and few bucks but the bucks are nearly always in the 140's. I take pictures of deer like this without even lifting my gun because they are COMMON














Not necessarily so. The above property has intense pressure due to intense doe harvest. Depends on what you need!



Sorry, just ain't buying it. I could kill 10-15 3.5 yr old + bucks a year (based on what I pass a year) and nearly all the properties I hunt are WELL managed and pretty heavily hunted and have a LOT of does harvested.

Sorry, I ain't buying it either!



Give us the specific examples:

I have a strong hunch that what you consider 'heavily hunted' and what the AVERAGE hunter considers 'heavily hunted' are 2 totally different things.

I figured you were going to chime in. LOL

And I know that you manage some exclusive properties. The simple fact that the property owners can afford to hire you to manage their property denotes this. I am quite certain that the properties contain nice deer. I am also quite certain that the habitat is really good and the carrying capacity and reproductive capacities are really high.

But, it has very little to do with the AVERAGE hunter and the property that he hunts here in AL.

We lease 738 acres. We have eight members. We try to shoot 10-15 does per year. We typically kill 6 - 10 bucks a year, and about half of these bucks are 3.5 years old or older "wallhanger" deer. We have high hunting pressure. We shoot does. We try not to shoot young bucks. We kill a pretty high number of mature bucks for the size property we have.

If you don't shoot does, you will see more deer. That's for two reasons: 1) you'll simply have more deer, and 2) with less intrusion from shooting, wandering around in the woods with a flashlight looking for deer, dragging deer out, and driving in to fields, etc. to haul deer out, the deer will feel more comforable in greenfields, and in daytime movement in general. If you don't shoot does, on most pieces of property in Alabama, you'll very quickly have more deer than the land can sustain in prime condition. Just because they have enough food to survive doesn't mean they have enough food to maximize body size and antler size. So if you don't shoot does, your bucks will be smaller.

You need to base your management on what your goals are. For some people, if they kill one or two 130-150" deer off their property in a year, they'll be very happy. Those folks need to shoot a lot of does, and they need to be very selective in the bucks they do shoot. For folks that want to see the most deer, they shouldn't shoot any does. But, do it long enough, and you'll have some issues. Having too many deer negatively impacts their health, and greatly increases the chance that there will be die offs.

For most folks, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

And the idea that you can't kill a mature buck if you shoot does is absolutely idiotic.

I've been in quite a few clubs with differing management rules. The one where I saw the most deer was in south Tuscaloosa County. It had the potential to be a great place for killing large numbers of 3.5-4.5 year old wallhanger deer. It had fertile soil, plenty of fields for planting, etc. But, instead of it being a great place for killing "nice" bucks, there were usually only one or two of "nice" deer killed every year. That is because the buck criteria was 4 point or better, and does were not allowed to be shot. It wasn't uncommon to see 20 deer in a hunt, and on a good day you might see 40. But, in a season of hunting, only one or two members would see a wallhanger deer. And that is because there weren't any there to speak of, and most that were killed traveled in from other properties during the rut. On that property you would see a ton of does, and there were usually 30-40 bucks killed each year. But they were almost all 1.5-2.5 year old small bucks.

I've also hunted places that were ruthless on the doe harvest. You usually wouldn't see many deer, and you would see as many bucks as does. But, when a buck got shot, it was a good one.

For me, the answer is in the middle. I want to see deer. But, I also want to have a good shot at killing a nice buck every year. And to have the best chance at this, we need to kill about 1/4 of the does off our property every year, and try to only shoot 3.5 year old and older bucks.

It works well for us, though there is always room for improvement.

Couldn't resist!!

While it may be exclusive and intensive, it has everything to do with the average hunter. The equation is still the same and simple. What varies is how you go about it and what you have to work with (as well as what your goals are). Here are the rules:
1) Good soils produce better deer
2) Good habitat produces healthier deer
3) Overabundant deer herds reduce habitat quality
4) Good habitat is capable of maintaining MUCH larger populations than poor habitat
4) Maintaining a deer population at a level where their browsing has no effect on the habitat allows all deer to grow to their potential
5) Not shooting young bucks allows some of them to grow old, aka, shooting young bucks guarantees they will not become mature

Obviously, some can manage the habitat and some not. Some of those that can, do not understand what good habitat is. Some properties, even with good habitat management, can only sustain low deer numbers in a healthy condition. On really crappy habitat, deer numbers that only provide a deer sighting every 3 hunts may be overpopulated. On other properties, the habitat might be able to sustain a population that provides 10-15 deer sightings per hunt and a 50/50 buck doe ratio.

[quote=SnapperSlapper][/quote]

I would say average of a doe per 50 acres (some more some less) harvest yields the same shooting pressure whether you are on a 50 acre property or a 5,000 acre property. One property has had so many does we recommended 200 does to be killed on 2,000 acres They didn't get there and the population crashed - bucks and does died from overpopulation and the habitat was significantly damaged. It is recovering (both habitat and deer population), but took a few years.

I stand behind Hogwild 100%, everything i wanted to say he said it. Dont know him at all. but he knows what hes talkin bout!

Bear Bryant used to say he could take his and beat your'n, and then take your'n and beat his.

Gobbler probably does manage some high-dollar land. But I'll bet he or any other management biologist could take your "average hunter" land, make recommendations and see the same or similar results if the "average hunter" would follow the advice.

If you're content shooting 120-class 8-pointers and no does, fine. You'll shoot them for a long time and have a few occasional good bucks. But I'd bet on good land with habitat, by shooting more does and letting those "nice" 8's walk another year some of them would they'd be "Wow" 10's or "Holy chit!" bigger bucks a year or two later.

No doubt about that, Clem.

But, the 'Average hunter' does not have the Time, Property, nor Finances to manage at that level.

As a matter of fact, MOST AL hunters do not have the ability to manage the habitat on the property that they hunt beyond planting a very small percentage of the property in food plots.

I am not against shooting does; and I am not for shooting young bucks.

But, I have common sense and realize the limitations of the 'Average Hunter'.

BTW, score up those bucks that gobbler posted.

There ain't no 150's in that group. Just good representative bucks for their age classes.

I can not disagree with what gobbler says period, thats what he does. So who do I need to call for a reasonably priced membership where 140" bucks are so common? haha
All the clubs I have been in lease land from timber companys, they control the habitat. They manage for trees not deer.
I have been in several clubs in the $1500 range and my current club cost $1175. I can't justify spending a lot of money for a club, and I'm content killing 120"-130" and seeing deer than hoping for giant deer and seeing nothing.

No, the average hunter doesn't have the self control to manage on that level.

Here is one from a small tract in Shelby Co that I have hunted for 4 years and never killed a deer on. The first year I got pics of 2-3 deer on my plots and never saw a deer while on stand. Now I get pics of 4-8 deer on my plots and have see them regularly while on stand. Not a giant but I would be happy to kill him. I don't think the property is over populated, my plots get visited very frequently but are not over-browsed nor are there any noticeable browse lines on the property.