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Firearm Purchases and Sales - READ THIS FIRST! #56431
12/10/10 09:04 AM
12/10/10 09:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,076
Fairhope
bamachem Offline OP
Old Mossy Horns
bamachem  Offline OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,076
Fairhope
If a transaction includes both a BUYER and SELLER from the state of Alabama, then no paperwork is required AS LONG AS THE SELLER DOES NOT HAVE ANY REASON TO SUSPECT THAT THE BUYER IS NOT LEGALLY ABLE TO POSSESS THE FIREARM. Most people in the legal profession will strongly suggest that when selling a firearm Face-to-Face to an individual, you ask to see their driver's license to verify that they are a resident of the same state that you reside in. They typically also suggest a simple affidavit and bill of sale stating something like the following (copy and paste to print, then both parties should sign):

***********************************************************************************************************************
FIREARM BILL OF SALE

I, _______________________________________ of ______________________, AL, do hereby sell and transfer legal possession and ownership of the below firearm to the buyer in consideration of the total sum of $___________. Buyer assumes all legal responsibility for this transaction, and by signing below, affirms that they are also a legal resident of Alabama and that it is legal for them to buy and possess the firearm. No warranties are either expressed or implied. Buyer is to use the firearm at their own discretion and risk as the seller hereby terminates all legal and physical control of the firearm by signing below.

Firearm Type:______________________

Firearm Make:______________________

Firearm Model:_____________________

Firearm S/N:_______________________

Firearm Caliber:___________________




Buyer: ________________________________ Date:_________ ALDL#: ________________________________



Seller: ________________________________ Date:_________ ALDL#: ________________________________



***********************************************************************************************************************


However, if the buyer and seller do NOT reside in the same state, then FEDERAL LAW applies for interstate transactions involving a firearm.

Direct from the ATF website: "Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping."

http://www.atf.gov/contact/faq/

In the past, I have sold a HANDGUN Face-To-Face to someone who was a resident of Florida.

However, I would not under any circumstances sell the handgun to them w/o having a FFL run their paperwork. I insisted, even though it almost cost me the sale due to the increased cost of the transaction fee.

They were not happy, but they went through with the purchase anyway.

Also worth noting, I drove the gun to their dealer in Pensacola, then gave it to the dealer for the transfer as the buyer gave me the cash for the purchase. That's the ONLY legal way to sell a gun to a resident of another state in a Face-To-Face situation.

The Buyer CANNOT drive to you and leave w/ the firearm - they MUST take delivery of the weapon in their own state.

If they drive to you, then you must still complete the transaction at an FFL dealer so that it can be shipped legally, then that dealer must ship the weapon to a dealer in the buyer's state, where the buyer has to go complete their paperwork and take possession of the weapon.

There is no legal way around it. PERIOD. It's an interstate transaction, so Federal Laws apply.

************************************************

Here's some good info from the ATF website:

http://www.atf.gov/contact/faq/

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.


(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.


(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.


Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3.

***********************************************

If you ever have any questions about a potential sale or purchase, please be very careful since a conviction on some of the charges for illegal gun sales will render you a felon and strip you of all rights to posses either a firearm or ammunition. Don't be stupid. If you can't get a straight answer from the ATF website regarding a transaction, feel free to contact an attorney (several on here) and you can also contact someone with the Attorney General office in your state for further clarification.

***********************************************

Last edited by bamachem; 03/01/13 08:46 AM.

The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. - Samuel Adams

MOLON LABE

Re: Face-to-Face Firearm Purchases - READ THIS FIRST! [Re: bamachem] #131602
05/24/11 07:37 PM
05/24/11 07:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,076
Fairhope
bamachem Offline OP
Old Mossy Horns
bamachem  Offline OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,076
Fairhope
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

ATF Home Firearms Frequently Asked Questions Unlicensed Persons Unlicensed Persons Questions

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



Q: May an unlicensed person obtain ammunition from an out-of-State source?
Yes, provided he or she is not a person prohibited from possessing or receiving ammunition.

[18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n)]



Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition?
Yes, a person who —

Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
Is a fugitive from justice;
Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;
Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm.

Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information.

[18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 478.32]



Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]



Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. - Samuel Adams

MOLON LABE

Re: Face-to-Face Firearm Purchases - READ THIS FIRST! [Re: bamachem] #470340
12/11/12 04:58 PM
12/11/12 04:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,189
RBC, AL
D
Drake322 Offline
8 point
Drake322  Offline
8 point
D
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,189
RBC, AL
Just ran into a situation. It seems that USPS has the local ability to refuse shipments of long guns between in-state buyer/seller. Called USPS and they verified that "each office can refuse to ship firearm in-state unless it is from/to FFL" even though ATF website clearly states this is legal. Beware, may cost you a sale/purchase.

Re: Face-to-Face Firearm Purchases - READ THIS FIRST! [Re: bamachem] #470343
12/11/12 05:05 PM
12/11/12 05:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 47,122
Under a Rock
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 47,122
Under a Rock
FedEx here recently wanted to know if I or my recipient had FFL license and I said it was unnecessary for in-state shipping.

They must be getting some heat or something about these.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

Coach Gus Malzen will have the boys ready! -- Ben2
Re: Face-to-Face Firearm Purchases - READ THIS FIRST! [Re: bamachem] #545019
03/01/13 08:49 AM
03/01/13 08:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,076
Fairhope
bamachem Offline OP
Old Mossy Horns
bamachem  Offline OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15,076
Fairhope
There are a LOT of "New In Box" guns out there for sale with the current market conditions. Although turning a quick profit here and there by picking up a firearm at a Retail Store and selling it online for a profit may be tempting, you might want to reconsider.

If you buy a gun and shortly thereafter sell it for a profit, then the ATF can consider that as a business transaction (intent to profit), and therefore you must be a licensed dealer. That can happen with either buying from a dealer or an individual.

As long as you have a good reason for buying and then later selling a "New In Box" gun, then there's not a whole lot they can do unless they can prove a pattern. If you buy a gun and three days later have buyer's remorse, there's nothing wrong with listing it for a fair market value. However, when you sell a "New In Box" gun as an individual, there's a decent chance that your buyer might be an ATF agent. If you say "I found it at Walmart the other day so I thought I'd make a quick buck on it", then you can expect a stay in Club Fed.

Also, if you buy a few in a short period of time, you can be flagged for a follow up meeting with an ATF agent. They will simply come to your house, knock on your door, and ask if they can see the guns you bought. You don't have to comply, but if you don't produce them, then you can bet that you will be investigated further.

Here's the US Code:

Quote:
The US Code says:
(11) The term “dealer” means

(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

Some further definitions:
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—
(A) is committed by an individual who is not a national or permanent resident alien of the United States;
(B) involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life which would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States; and
(C) is intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.


The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. - Samuel Adams

MOLON LABE


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