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Re: Big Buck Project [Re: Matt07] #413562
09/29/12 10:07 AM
09/29/12 10:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 39,377
Marshall County
FurFlyin Offline
Freak of Nature
FurFlyin  Offline
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Posts: 39,377
Marshall County
Originally Posted By: Matt07
I am not as experienced as some in this discussion and I don't have a biology background, I'm just a regular feller. But at some point I would hope all of us as hunters (me included) would realize how to enjoy hunting for what it is and not what I wish it was based on what I have seen or heard about. To me there is a fine line between improving the deer hunting experience by land management/health of the heard (which I am in total favor of)and never being satisfied with what we got which in my opinion is a nice liberal season that allows choices through out the season. I battle this within myself a lot. I would like to work and make my land as good as it can be and just enjoy God's creation.


Great post and something I have had to do a lot of thinking about myself. For the past 3 years I have provided the deer on our place with very high quality year round forage. I've improved the soil, the habitat and the groceries. I started this because I wasn't satisfied with what we had. What I came to realize is that what I wanted to achieve is not 100% attainable. I only have control over a small part of the deers total habitat. I can only lime and fertilize a small percentage of the whole. I don't live in the blackbelt, Jackson county or the TN river flood plain. A very good mature buck here will score 120" That's better than it would score 4 years ago, but not a whole lot. The main benefits I have seen are increased body weights, and an overall healthier appearing deer herd. I can live with that. I'll be just as proud of a 120" deer here as I would be a 150" deer in Jackson county. It is what it is.


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BhamFred] #413569
09/29/12 10:30 AM
09/29/12 10:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,916
Madison
BowtechDan Offline
Old Mossy Horns
BowtechDan  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,916
Madison
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
Originally Posted By: mackdaddy
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing


the passing of traits varies from deer to deer, just like cattle/horses/dogs etc. Some bucks breed true, some (a lot) of does throw buck babies that look more like their daddy than the buck they were bred to. 70% is just a wild ass guess...


There's plenty of that WAG going around, huh?

Originally Posted By: BhamFred


I'd guess that 80%, or more, of the bows going hunting this season won't be tuned properly.....


Nathan Carl Goff 19 Sept 2016 - 14 Jan 2017.
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BhamFred] #413586
09/29/12 11:43 AM
09/29/12 11:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 23,870
Clarksville, TN /Greenville, ...
bill Offline
Freak of Nature
bill  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 23,870
Clarksville, TN /Greenville, ...
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
Originally Posted By: truedouble
I've seen pictures of some of the bucks you've killed and in my opinion they are all trophies b/c of their age, but not many/ any would be considered "monsters".


not any?


just for fun please define "monster" for me.....


just for clarification I am a trophy (big antlers) nut of the first order. I just refuse to shoot a three year old with a big rack knowing it will be a LOT bigger in two years. Age matters a lot with me.

you do know you ain't seen all of my bucks, bill
won't let me show them on here....




troy


I used to think I needed to point out your "look at me" narcissism. I finally realized everyone else
could see just fine and didn't need my help.


We have a renowned expert here in BSK who is willing to share his knowledge with us and instead of listening and participating you've tried to turn this into another thread about you.

To everyone else ; sorry to hijack.


"Political debate: when charlatans come together to discuss their principles"
-
Bauvard
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: bwhunter] #413591
09/29/12 12:00 PM
09/29/12 12:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
BhamFred Offline
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
ain't about me , it's about what truedouble said, course you can't read that. I just disagreed that horn hunters are the ruin of all deer hunting.

btw, I listen to BSK, he is knowledgable in matters of deer. I just don't listen to know nothings like you bill, who just run their mouths.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BowtechDan] #413592
09/29/12 12:02 PM
09/29/12 12:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
BhamFred Offline
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Offline
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Posts: 36,092
alabama
Originally Posted By: BowtechDan
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
Originally Posted By: mackdaddy
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing


the passing of traits varies from deer to deer, just like cattle/horses/dogs etc. Some bucks breed true, some (a lot) of does throw buck babies that look more like their daddy than the buck they were bred to. 70% is just a wild ass guess...


There's plenty of that WAG going around, huh?

Originally Posted By: BhamFred


I'd guess that 80%, or more, of the bows going hunting this season won't be tuned properly.....


I said mine was a guess, so from an armchair "expert" like you what % of bows hitting the woods next month will be properly tuned????


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BhamFred] #413594
09/29/12 12:21 PM
09/29/12 12:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,916
Madison
BowtechDan Offline
Old Mossy Horns
BowtechDan  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,916
Madison
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
Originally Posted By: BowtechDan
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
Originally Posted By: mackdaddy
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing


the passing of traits varies from deer to deer, just like cattle/horses/dogs etc. Some bucks breed true, some (a lot) of does throw buck babies that look more like their daddy than the buck they were bred to. 70% is just a wild ass guess...


There's plenty of that WAG going around, huh?

Originally Posted By: BhamFred


I'd guess that 80%, or more, of the bows going hunting this season won't be tuned properly.....


I said mine was a guess, so from an armchair "expert" like you what % of bows hitting the woods next month will be properly tuned????


Ned,

Anyone with a brain should just leave that statistic alone. What's that saying? Better to keep folks guessing than open your mouth and prove it? But go ahead. It's entertaining to watch someone question others % and then insert foot at the same time. wink


Nathan Carl Goff 19 Sept 2016 - 14 Jan 2017.
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: bwhunter] #413597
09/29/12 12:37 PM
09/29/12 12:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
BhamFred Offline
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
so, in other words, you're just running that wanna be mouth again and don't have an opinion????


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: bwhunter] #414104
09/30/12 04:18 AM
09/30/12 04:18 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
I really do think people need to take a long hard look at the motivations behind this growing antler score obsession. Why does it really matter to hunters? Is it is a personal test of hunting skill, or is it more about a peer-related motivation ("Let's whip them out and see who's is bigger")? What's the difference between a mature buck that scores 120 and 170? And yes, I know some smart-ass will say 50 inches, but that's my point. Is a 170 mature buck harder to kill than a 120 mature buck? Who is it that a hunter is worried will looking down their nose at the 120-inch mature buck he/she just killed? I'll bet it isn't themselves.

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BSK] #414127
09/30/12 07:39 AM
09/30/12 07:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: BSK
I really do think people need to take a long hard look at the motivations behind this growing antler score obsession. Why does it really matter to hunters? Is it is a personal test of hunting skill, or is it more about a peer-related motivation ("Let's whip them out and see who's is bigger")? What's the difference between a mature buck that scores 120 and 170? And yes, I know some smart-ass will say 50 inches, but that's my point. Is a 170 mature buck harder to kill than a 120 mature buck? Who is it that a hunter is worried will looking down their nose at the 120-inch mature buck he/she just killed? I'll bet it isn't themselves.


Well said and good points. As Americans and humans we are a competitive bunch. Antler size has always been the measuring stick. Now with the TV super stars on the outdoor networks it's in peoples face and they gotta have theirs. Personally the bucks I like the most are the "total package". Age, body size,antlers and the ones I have to really think to kill.
Is it wrong to shoot a buck because he has large antlers, no, I do think there is a problem when hunters become obsessed with it. There is a fine line, some can't walk it. IMHO
You're up kinda early on a Sunday morning. smile



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Big Buck Project [Re: 2Dogs] #414130
09/30/12 07:56 AM
09/30/12 07:56 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs

Is it wrong to shoot a buck because he has large antlers, no, I do think there is a problem when hunters become obsessed with it. There is a fine line, some can't walk it. IMHO


EXTREMELY well said. I agree completely.


Quote:
You're up kinda early on a Sunday morning. smile


The "joys" of self-employment. Work schedules are rarely M-W, 9-5! frown

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BSK] #414363
09/30/12 04:27 PM
09/30/12 04:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,911
Pine Hill, Al
T
Todd1700 Offline
12 point
Todd1700  Offline
12 point
T
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,911
Pine Hill, Al
Quote:
I really do think people need to take a long hard look at the motivations behind this growing antler score obsession. Why does it really matter to hunters? Is it is a personal test of hunting skill, or is it more about a peer-related motivation ("Let's whip them out and see who's is bigger")? What's the difference between a mature buck that scores 120 and 170? And yes, I know some smart-ass will say 50 inches, but that's my point. Is a 170 mature buck harder to kill than a 120 mature buck? Who is it that a hunter is worried will looking down their nose at the 120-inch mature buck he/she just killed? I'll bet it isn't themselves.


Well said. I agree with every word.


The best index to a person’s character is (a) how he treats people who can’t do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can’t fight back.
- Abigail van Buren
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: mackdaddy] #414483
09/30/12 07:05 PM
09/30/12 07:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,751
USA
R
Remington270 Online content
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Online Content
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,751
USA
Originally Posted By: mackdaddy
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing


Hmmmm, not sure about this one. 9th grade biology would tell me its 50/50 between mother and father for humans and animals with sexual reproduction. You got one sperm and one egg each with half the DNA code.

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: Remington270] #414693
10/01/12 08:12 AM
10/01/12 08:12 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: Remington270
Originally Posted By: mackdaddy
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing


Hmmmm, not sure about this one. 9th grade biology would tell me its 50/50 between mother and father for humans and animals with sexual reproduction. You got one sperm and one egg each with half the DNA code.


And that's the problem. Most people have a High School understanding of genetics. Genetics are so much more complicated than what is taught at that level. In fact, when looking at what is taught at the High School level, the realities are so much more complex that it basically makes that High School level information incorrect. Very few genetic traits follow the simple Mendelian process of single dominant/recessive genes. We were all taught the simple relationship between brown eyes and blue eyes and how the combination of dominant-dominant, dominant-recessive, and recessive-recessive determines a child's eye color. Yet, in reality, eye color is determined by an exceedingly complex combination of at least 17 different genes.

Quite a few expressed genetic traits in one sex are inherited exclusively from the parent of the other sex. The best known example of this is male pattern baldness in humans. This trait is expressed in men, but can only be inherited from a man's mother. Nature is full of these relationships. A buck's genetic antler characteristics could be inherited exclusively from his mother. But the genetics of antler characteristics are not at all understood. We just don't know that much about antler development yet. The few scientific looks at heritable antler traits that have been done (and none of them have been extensive) definitely suggest the majority of single-generation expressed antler traits come from the mother.

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BSK] #414718
10/01/12 09:07 AM
10/01/12 09:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 329
Alabama
K
Kicker Offline
4 point
Kicker  Offline
4 point
K
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 329
Alabama
Under Boone & Crocket guidelines, deer raised in a zoo or captive deer are not eligible for their record book. How can they continue to accept trophies for their record book from a state that allows landowners to release captive raised deer in the wild?

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: BSK] #414719
10/01/12 09:07 AM
10/01/12 09:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 39,377
Marshall County
FurFlyin Offline
Freak of Nature
FurFlyin  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 39,377
Marshall County
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: Remington270
Originally Posted By: mackdaddy
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing


Hmmmm, not sure about this one. 9th grade biology would tell me its 50/50 between mother and father for humans and animals with sexual reproduction. You got one sperm and one egg each with half the DNA code.


And that's the problem. Most people have a High School understanding of genetics. Genetics are so much more complicated than what is taught at that level. In fact, when looking at what is taught at the High School level, the realities are so much more complex that it basically makes that High School level information incorrect. Very few genetic traits follow the simple Mendelian process of single dominant/recessive genes. We were all taught the simple relationship between brown eyes and blue eyes and how the combination of dominant-dominant, dominant-recessive, and recessive-recessive determines a child's eye color. Yet, in reality, eye color is determined by an exceedingly complex combination of at least 17 different genes.

Quite a few expressed genetic traits in one sex are inherited exclusively from the parent of the other sex. The best known example of this is male pattern baldness in humans. This trait is expressed in men, but can only be inherited from a man's mother. Nature is full of these relationships. A buck's genetic antler characteristics could be inherited exclusively from his mother. But the genetics of antler characteristics are not at all understood. We just don't know that much about antler development yet. The few scientific looks at heritable antler traits that have been done (and none of them have been extensive) definitely suggest the majority of single-generation expressed antler traits come from the mother.


Yep, very true. Genetics is a fascinating area of study. I did not like school, but I gave very serious thought to persuing a post graduate degree in genetics. I may be the only Ag graduate in AU history to have loved the Drs Wooten genetics class..... Just think I could have been FurFlyin PhD laugh


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Re: Big Buck Project [Re: bwhunter] #414727
10/01/12 09:17 AM
10/01/12 09:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 86
Guntersville
D
Dream Buck Offline
spike
Dream Buck  Offline
spike
D
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 86
Guntersville
Since we are posting quotes from Dr. Steve Ditchkoff, added are 3 additonal ones.
Quotes from Dr. Steve Ditchkoff:

“At this time, there are no density-dependent diseases present in the Southeast that are important from a deer management perspective.”

“Wildlife biologists and managers have been transporting and releasing wildlife species as part of repopulation efforts or hunting programs for more than 100 years. These releases continue to this day with a multitude of species that include quail, pheasants, and multiple gamebird species, waterfowl, fish, and many others, in addition to white-tailed deer.”

“The degree to which captive deer herds are tested for diseases, specifically chronic wasting disease, far exceeds that to which wild herds of deer are tested. In all probability, if a deer was present with CWD in a captive herd, it would have a much greater probability of being detected than if it was present in a free-ranging population.”

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: bwhunter] #414893
10/01/12 02:36 PM
10/01/12 02:36 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Hmmmm... Something tells me those quotes by Dr. D are taken out of context.

Yes, we are lucky no major infectious diseases currently exist in the Southeast. But start allowing large-scale relocation of wildlife and that won't last for long.

Yes, many deer and other wildlife were restocked in areas where they didn't exist. And that is critical. You cannot pass a disease to the resident population when there is no resident population.

Although laws exist for the testing of captive deer for CWD, these laws are rearely followed. In addition, no known accurate live-animal test for CWD exists.

I'll never forget a talk I heard a few years ago at the Southeast Deer Study Group given by the Director of the Southeast Wildlife Disease Group (the premier authority on wildlife diseases in the Southeast). He said the #1 threat to wildlife in the U.S. is the translocation of wildlife--the movement of wildlife across regions. This is THE fastest known way to spread disease. Intrerestingly, the #2 threat was the artificial feeding of wildlife.

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: bwhunter] #415284
10/01/12 10:13 PM
10/01/12 10:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 49
L
longbow76 Offline
spike
longbow76  Offline
spike
L
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 49
BSK, I don't understand why you are against what these guys are doing. It is legal, they cleared it through the state, and even if it doesn't work they haven't hurt anything. I'm all for trying new things and see if it works. Also, what is the difference in what they are doing and all the people that are doing it in high fences? They release thousands each year across Alabama in high fences.

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: Coondog4] #415386
10/02/12 07:57 AM
10/02/12 07:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
14 point
truedouble  Offline
14 point
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
Originally Posted By: Coondog4
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
I know , average 4-5 in Alabama is below 130-140, and will remain that way even if you release truck load after truck load of larger bucks. Wonder what those 180's that have been eating 25% protein in a pen gonna look like after a year of acorns and browse?


Again, the nutrition factor is huge and I agree with what your saying about the dirt, protein, etc. However, genetics are huge and I don't think it would hurt to try. Bo Jackson weighed 230 lbs and ran a 4.2 40yd dash. 2 dogs more than likely didn't look or run like Bo. Those are genetics. If humans had horns and 2 dogs and Bo ate the same thing their entire life, I have to say that Bo is a 170" and 2 dogs is 130". Its just genetics.


Bo Jackson would be like a net 206"....One in a lifetime kind of deal...not a very good analogy... but I get your point...my point is the genetics are there for some exceptional bucks in Al. They just lack age mostly and then I'm sure some lack the nutrition. Genetics aren't the missing link

Re: Big Buck Project [Re: longbow76] #415392
10/02/12 08:02 AM
10/02/12 08:02 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: longbow76
BSK, I don't understand why you are against what these guys are doing.


Because what they are doing is INCREDIBLY dangerous. They could be releasing deer wth who-knows-what diseases into the wild population. And they are placing the wild deer population at risk for no good reason. Deer in AL DO NOT have a "genetic problem" with antler development. They have limitations in their nutritonal intake. I have no doubt the deer of AL have the same genetic potenial for antler growth as the deer of Iowa and Illinois.


Quote:
It is legal...


It shoud NOT be legal.


Quote:
...they cleared it through the state...


And politicians make good decisions?


Quote:
...and even if it doesn't work they haven't hurt anything.


It won't work and it could very well be disastrous. Let's see how you feel about how [i]they haven't hurt anything[i]" when CWD shows up in these areas.


Quote:
I'm all for trying new things and see if it works.


I'm all for trying new things that 1) do no harm; and 2) have the potential to be beneficial to the deer herds. This has no such potential and could be extremely harmful.


Quote:
Also, what is the difference in what they are doing and all the people that are doing it in high fences? They release thousands each year across Alabama in high fences.


Are you assuming I think high-fence operations are a good thing? I do not.

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