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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922483
06/07/23 10:50 PM
06/07/23 10:50 PM
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Awbarn, AL
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Taking that same concept a little further about the numbers on that last map…….I have an idea for why that big swath of southern counties may be seeing those big increases………

It seems pretty obvious that turkey kills are following the same up/down patterns that temps and rainfall do……likely lagging a couple years behind. I’m guessing its probably rainfall and its impact on rodent populations and in turn the impact that has on avian predators preying on poults.

Soooo, we pretty much all saw the same record wet pattern statewide a couple/three years ago. That should mean that everyone saw relief from avian predators during that time period……What I’m thinking is that the numbers on that map may also be showing us just how much of an impact avian predators were having in those southern counties. The record rainfall removed a lot of avian pressure and those areas really responded since that was a major limiting factor for population growth…….

Other counties, again like Jackson or Cleburne were not being as limited by avian predators and therefore the “relief” didn’t matter nearly as much…..The little amount of relief combined with the increase in nest predation due to baiting being why they saw a decline during this same time period.........maybe......possibly.......something to that effect is happening.

Last edited by CNC; 06/07/23 10:52 PM.

The Corn Crash!!!
Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922593
06/08/23 08:31 AM
06/08/23 08:31 AM
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Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
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Originally Posted by CNC
Burning isolated 20acre patches in areas where no other burning was occurring would likely do more harm than good. You create an island for predators to hammer when you do that.


I have gotta believe that you have never done any burning if you believe that. Most of the burning I've done is with 20 to 30 acre patches, though I will usually burn several of them in a year. I think your statement could possibly be true if you burned 1 acre plots, but I have found 20 acres to be plenty big.

But actually, I just pulled the 20 acres number out of thin air to come up with a figure to pair with your figure of 20 coon tails. And I might also point out that you pulled your number out of thin air as well. smile

I am trying to HELP your proposal, not tear it down. For it to happen, you have gotta sell it to 2 groups. The first is the dcnr biologists, though in actuality that is just Chuck alone. Convince him and it doesn't really matter what those under him think. And the 2nd group is the CAB. I don't think they will go for a plan that gives extra benefits to coon trappers but leaves out the people who are actually doing things to produce poults. There's a lot of those people who have a lot of political influence, and from what I know of the process, I think they would be considered.

To have any hope of getting it done, I think you have to make the most people happy that you can. Pitting trappers against the people who are spending large amounts of money to produce turkeys doesn't seem like a recipe for success to me. But good luck with it


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922615
06/08/23 09:07 AM
06/08/23 09:07 AM
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>>>I mean no offense but this idea that burning will solve everyone’s problem seems very narrow in scope and vision. It is ONE avenue for change in a scenario where there needs to be several enacted.<<<

Let me respond to this too, CNC. I absolutely agree; burning is just one part of a good plan. If you are going to put together an incentive plan that would let some hunters start before others, then I agree that it should include as many practices as possible. I thought that was the argument I was making? Just allowing hunters to qualify for the incentive through coon tails is too narrow, and burning is a practice that I have found very effective and relatively easy to document. I think I said somewhere in this thread to look for some other practices to include.

But I will also add this - I've found burning to be a practice that has always been beneficial to turkeys in some way, no matter what kind of burn it is. Whether understory, site prep, or young longleaf, the turkeys always seem to use it and benefit. I think burning fits in nicely with coon trapping in that I don't think either practice is ever likely bad for the turkeys. The only good coon is a dead coon, and burned land makes happy turkeys.


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922622
06/08/23 09:15 AM
06/08/23 09:15 AM
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Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
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The thing about including other practices into the proposal is that many are very site specific. Cutting all the timber on a tract of land can be disastrous for turkeys, virtually eliminating them from using the site after a couple of years. But cutting SOME of the timber can be an essential part of a good management plan. So how can you write that into a proposal like this? I don't know how to do that without making it very complicated. Maybe someone else can help with it.


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922763
06/08/23 12:36 PM
06/08/23 12:36 PM
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Awbarn, AL
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PCP.........All I know to say to all of this political stuff is..... Hmmmmmm smile


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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922765
06/08/23 12:43 PM
06/08/23 12:43 PM
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I think I may be onto something with that last set of ramblings........Just check out the main habitat types dominating the areas associated with decline and the main types dominating the areas associated with an increase.......

These pictures suck but go to your own Google Earth and match things up and it makes sense........

Decrease.........

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Increase...........

[Linked Image]

Last edited by CNC; 06/08/23 12:43 PM.

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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922884
06/08/23 05:56 PM
06/08/23 05:56 PM
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Here’s the basis for what I’m talking about……..Variables like rainfall are the beginning for what can be a chain of cause and effect events. The easiest way to see how these things play out are when they occur at “extremes”……For example, when there’s an extreme spike in rainfall then its easier to see the effects stick out several links down the cause/effect chain because they are likely to occur in an extreme as well. We just came through a record wet period so you would expect to see other large effects tied to it…….

Just like in extreme south Alabama……Looking at Google Earth actually makes it easy to see because you’re basically looking at it from an avian predator’s point of view………..There’s very little canopy cover. Its probably an avian predator paradise across a very large area. In years when rodent numbers are down poults probably get hammered across this region. But when there’s a rodent boom……then there’s a rodent BOOOM!!!!.....and poults see a lot pressure taken off of them temporarily. Record rain would produce a record rodent boom which would produce record relief from avian predators and eventually down the line.....a really big spikes in kill numbers like we see.

I think canopy cover is probably a big variable at play here……When you have closed canopy it probably takes away a lot of the avian predators advantage and population growth becomes more limited by nest predation than aerial attacks. There’s probably much higher base rodent populations in those uncanopied areas as well.

Last edited by CNC; 06/08/23 05:58 PM.

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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922902
06/08/23 06:43 PM
06/08/23 06:43 PM
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And to be clear……I’m not saying that this is only playing out in this area……It is playing out to varying degrees in every county across the whole state……These are just the places where we can see it playing out the easiest because they are habitat “extremes”. If you look around the google earth map though at the whole state and match it up to that 4 year change map I posted…..it matches pretty dang well where areas with little canopy cover were the areas that benefited.


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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922910
06/08/23 06:56 PM
06/08/23 06:56 PM
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Burning is essentially creating “canopy cover” closer to the ground in areas where tree canopy doesn’t exist. I guess that’s something to think about when you start dropping fire……when is the best time to remove it?.......how much to remove??....etc……..Take all of those open cattle fields and switch them to a patch/burn graze system to get some "canopy" across some of it and you’re talking about making change……


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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3922915
06/08/23 07:15 PM
06/08/23 07:15 PM
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This probably answers the question of why we've seen a steady increase in avian predator populations......We've been steadily opening up and exposing more acres of ground to them over the years.....cow pastures, hay fields, etc

Last edited by CNC; 06/08/23 07:15 PM.

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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3923008
06/08/23 09:41 PM
06/08/23 09:41 PM
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Posts: 5,174
South Alabama
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Originally Posted by CNC
I’m guessing its probably rainfall and its impact on rodent populations and in turn the impact that has on avian predators preying on poults.


Good Night! Could you provide ANY references that would support your argument. Talk about pulling ##'s out of your butt!

Originally Posted by CNC
Soooo, we pretty much all saw the same record wet pattern statewide a couple/three years ago. That should mean that everyone saw relief from avian predators during that time period……What I’m thinking is that the numbers on that map may also be showing us just how much of an impact avian predators were having in those southern counties. The record rainfall removed a lot of avian pressure and those areas really responded since that was a major limiting factor for population growth…….

Other counties, again like Jackson or Cleburne were not being as limited by avian predators and therefore the “relief” didn’t matter nearly as much…..The little amount of relief combined with the increase in nest predation due to baiting being why they saw a decline during this same time period.........maybe......possibly.......something to that effect is happening.


Same, Why OH Why would Jackson and Cleburne co's be exempt from avian predator pressure?? rolleyes Yea, had to use the rolleyes, haven't used it since 49r

Originally Posted by CNC
This probably answers the question of why we've seen a steady increase in avian predator populations......We've been steadily opening up and exposing more acres of ground to them over the years.....cow pastures, hay fields, etc


We have increased in forest land and decreased in open cow pastures, hay fields and ag lands. I can provide a reference if you wish

Originally Posted by CNC
I think I may be on something with that last set of ramblings


I agree

Last edited by gobbler; 06/08/23 09:48 PM.

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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3923039
06/08/23 10:21 PM
06/08/23 10:21 PM
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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: gobbler] #3923211
06/09/23 02:03 PM
06/09/23 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gobbler
Good Night! Could you provide ANY references that would support your argument. Talk about pulling ##'s out of your butt!


Most all studies on rodents show their populations linked to rainfall……I don’t know that any have been done specifically in Alabama but you can pick and choose for yourself which one you want to disagree with.

Originally Posted by gobbler
Same, Why OH Why would Jackson and Cleburne co's be exempt from avian predator pressure?? rolleyes Yea, had to use the rolleyes, haven't used it since 49r


If you’ll read it again you’ll see that it said “not as limited”……..meaning not effected as much…….instead of “exempt” as you choose to mischaracterize it. The way y’all choose to purposely take things out of context is very telling.

Originally Posted by gobbler
We have increased in forest land and decreased in open cow pastures, hay fields and ag lands. I can provide a reference if you wish


Post up your study about land use if you want but if avian predators are increasing then it would only stand to reason that their main food sources are as well. There's certainly no shortage of open land no matter how you want to label it.

Last edited by CNC; 06/09/23 02:06 PM.

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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3923226
06/09/23 03:03 PM
06/09/23 03:03 PM
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Its pretty apparent that "what's best for turkey" is taking a back seat to what's best for everyone's personal agenda.


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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3923297
06/09/23 06:53 PM
06/09/23 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by gobbler
Good Night! Could you provide ANY references that would support your argument. Talk about pulling ##'s out of your butt!


Most all studies on rodents show their populations linked to rainfall……I don’t know that any have been done specifically in Alabama but you can pick and choose for yourself which one you want to disagree with.


Most everything is linked to rainfall and mostly positive correlation. The problem is you always take it 2 or 3 degrees more without supporting data, in this case linking avian predation and poults to both rainfall and rodent populations as if increased rainfall is responsible for higher poult survival because of higher rodents populations. Might be true but it may also be that higher rodent populations cause higher nest predation rates or more rainfall cause increased insect populations increasing poult food supply or better nesting cover increasing nest success or better cover for poults while they are feeding increasing survival...........

Originally Posted by gobbler
Same, Why OH Why would Jackson and Cleburne co's be exempt from avian predator pressure?? rolleyes Yea, had to use the rolleyes, haven't used it since 49r


Originally Posted by CNC
If you’ll read it again you’ll see that it said “not as limited”……..meaning not effected as much…….instead of “exempt” as you choose to mischaracterize it. The way y’all choose to purposely take things out of context is very telling.


OK, Why OH why would Jackson and Cleburne co's be not as limited from avian predator pressure?? rolleyes

Originally Posted by gobbler
We have increased in forest land and decreased in open cow pastures, hay fields and ag lands. I can provide a reference if you wish


Originally Posted by CNC
Post up your study about land use if you want but if avian predators are increasing then it would only stand to reason that their main food sources are as well. There's certainly no shortage of open land no matter how you want to label it.


"For instance, agricultural lands have decreased by about 27% while timberlands and urban lands have increased by about 8% and 13% respectively from 1972 to 2000 [6]. Within the timbered landscape, hardwoods constituted the highest in the 1970s; however, recent timberland outlooks show that softwoods have increased relative to hardwoods [7]."

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4907/14/2/171

Originally Posted by CNC
Its pretty apparent that "what's best for turkey" is taking a back seat to what's best for everyone's personal agenda.


Agendas here? Didn't realize I had an agenda

Last edited by gobbler; 06/09/23 06:57 PM.

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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: gobbler] #3923331
06/09/23 08:27 PM
06/09/23 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gobbler
Most everything is linked to rainfall and mostly positive correlation. The problem is you always take it 2 or 3 degrees more without supporting data, in this case linking avian predation and poults to both rainfall and rodent populations as if increased rainfall is responsible for higher poult survival because of higher rodents populations. Might be true but it may also be that higher rodent populations cause higher nest predation rates or more rainfall cause increased insect populations increasing poult food supply or better nesting cover increasing nest success or better cover for poults while they are feeding increasing survival...........


You slay me……..One minute you say I’m pulling chit out of my butt and the next minute suddenly it seems feasible after I explain it. Maybe you should give it more thought before slamming what I post

Do you have a link to the Tall Timbers research on alternative prey sources??........I believe I remember you quoting yourself where they found higher levels of rodent populations equating to lower levels of predation on poults. It would stand to reason that this would be something that would swing back and forth over time as rodent populations went up and down


Originally Posted by gobbler
OK, Why OH why would Jackson and Cleburne co's be not as limited from avian predator pressure?? rolleyes



Couple of reasons why they may not see the same rate of avian mortality…….The first being that those close canopied hardwoods probably don’t support the same levels of rodent populations as open grassland to begin with……therefore you likely don’t have as many avian predators per sq mile or whatever unit of measurement you prefer……..Secondly, the avian predators likely don’t have the same ease of hunting in closed canopied hardwoods as they do in open rangeland. There is limited visibility from the air and much shorter lines of sight which likely means less efficiency in comparison. If this isnt true then explain the dynamics of how an area like Jackson Co has such a thriving turkey population…..or has in the past.


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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3923357
06/09/23 09:29 PM
06/09/23 09:29 PM
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You know you put yourself in a tough position to ever be able to accept anyone else’s ideas as being correct when you phrase your questions in such a condescending manner. Maybe after someone explains it and you give it some more thought it begins to make more sense to you but you’ve already put yourself in the position of having to admit you were being an ass in order to get there. You could avoid these hurdles in the future by changing the tone of your posts but it’s however you want to do it…… grin

Last edited by CNC; 06/09/23 09:30 PM.

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Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3923464
06/10/23 09:03 AM
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[Linked Image]

These dive bombers clean up as many young birds as coons and fire ants (Can’t touch this)

Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: CNC] #3923524
06/10/23 12:06 PM
06/10/23 12:06 PM
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Not only does CNC argue until the end of time, he tells you how you should argue back. 🤣🤣🤣

Re: A Trapping Incentive [Re: Pwyse] #3923592
06/10/23 03:00 PM
06/10/23 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Pwyse
Not only does CNC argue until the end of time, he tells you how you should argue back. 🤣🤣🤣


Who's arguing??.......We're just debating ideas. grin


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