Since this topic is far from TFT and the podcast, I started this new thread

I don't think the PBG concept is far fetched - for turkeys or quail. I have followed some of Dale Rollins stuff over the years and it has a lot of merit for mimicking natural systems. I know we had buffalo and elk here, curious as to the densities in our "prairie" vs out west. I know I had a client that had low density cows free range about half of his property and the cow area was cleaner and turkeys loved it. Turkeys also love a cattle pasture but that is usually on non native pasture.

I also agree we have an overabundance of native grass issue, especially broomstraw and bushybeard on our "managed" and burned properties. Wonder how well grazers control those. I know cows don't graze them much but the soil disturbance and fertilizer effect may change soil chemistry enough to make a difference. Lots of quail places are looking for ways to reduce the density of grasses and increase forbs and overall diversity.
You set up the program with the NRCS and Ill get some folks to sign up



I have discussed this issue with some landowners specifically for this reason. Haven't ever done it. But if cattle will help "manage" your property better for wildlife, it may be worth it to run a herd of cows on it even if it isn't for the money.

I believe the flint hills of Kansas practice this still today. But the only trees are in the drainage areas - mostly prairie.

But it’s not practical in AL on a large scale. Individual landowner - go for it. But no need to study it - not trying to be cynical about it - just realistic.

Why wouldn't an interested researcher study it. Burning alabama on a "large scale" is not practical either but we recommend it and study it as a management tool and know it has habitat and population scale benefits.

If not making money on them is not part of the objective, then it could be beneficial to a point. But by the time you fence and purchase the cattle, I think the money you spend on it could have a bigger impact spent somewhere else. For the average cattle guy in it for a profit, I just don’t think it would work.

Are we still studying the benefits of burning? I can’t wrap my head around that either. I don’t see why. It’s been proven what that can accomplish. Some landowners can utilize burning - awesome. Most can not.

I hunted a place in Texas year before last that I saw 25 gobblers one morning (all sizes). They turned cows loose in it and Stateline can attest, wasn't a turkey to be found in there this past spring. Best we can tell, that was the only difference from one spring to the next. Not sure if the hens didn't like them being there due to nesting, etc. and didn't move to the area or what??? Anyway, ya'll can keep your cows away from anywhere I turkey hunt.

I would argue there is a huge difference between "can not" and "will not". Most landowners could use it but, for a variety of reasons, chose not to.

Is burning still studied? Sure in amongst other study objectives mostly at least regarding turkeys. Do a google scholar search on Chamberlain and he has 4 out of the first 10 that come up with fire in the title. There is still much to learn about it and how critters relate to it or utilize if. Season of burn and the species that respond on different soil types... there are a bunch of aspects I would love to see. A great one would be optimum burn patch size, season and frequency along with optimal percent of the habitat in a "burned" system. We know that 1,000 acre burns are not good for turkeys and 1 acre burns would be useless. What about in between? Which burn patch size is best utilized by poults, which size best used by adult birds, is there more predation on the lower size scale or upper? We know vegetation response to burn frequency and season is different in different latitudes and soil types, so what is the optimum burn frequency in the piedmont, coastal plain, mountains??? Yea, it is still researched and there is still many questions that can be asked by inquisitive minds. The whole patch burn grazing is intriguing and not researched at all, that I know of, in the southeast.



I have hunted around cows on a few properties over the years. The areas I saw them they were nothing but a benefit and I have had to be careful pulling the trigger to not hit a cow. I have had them mess up a set up and I have used them to stalk closer to turkeys in a field. Overall I like them as they relate to turkeys.

Glad you posted that, I have listened to a bunch of those podcasts and have been interviewed on it as well. Must have missed this one!

That’s my only experience, so a small sample for sure. But bad enough that I don’t want to chance any other experiences with them, haha.

If the goal is to have a positive impact on overall turkey populations, then maybe the focus should be on methods that can actually be applied on a broad scale.

Fire & other habitat improvements are a pipe dream for the vast majority of hunters..

I don't buy that for a minute. If the MAIN way to have an impact on the overall turkey population (habitat management) isn't to be the focus then what should be? Which methods would you suggest that could be applied on a broad scale. If the vast majority of hunters are stuck hunting public land and timber leases, they have their hands are tied and there isn't much they can do but the overall turkey population does NOT live on public and and timber company leases. Fire and other habitat improvements are the ONLY way we can effect the overall turkey populations.

Let’s hope that’s not the truth…… because you won’t ever see it on a large enough scale to make a difference, without laws or subsidies changing.

Whether it’s private land or timber company doesn’t make much difference. If you can find one that will let you burn or manipulate timber, they are the exception to the rule.

I’m very much “pro” burning. But between all the clubs I’ve been in, and leases I’ve had, there’s been exactly (1) that would let me burn. And he’s a small landowner, who just doesn’t give a chit about liability.

I definitely am on a burn rotation on my private property and the owners of the hunting club I'm in believes in burning when they believe it is beneficial for the timber growth.

My question still remains. If the MAIN way to have an impact on the overall turkey population (habitat management) isn't to be the focus then what should be? Which methods would you suggest that could be applied on a broad scale. Where should the research focus? Or should we just say there isn't anything we can do?

That’s a really good question. I don’t think hunters ever wrestle with it or truly think it out. We may just need a breakthrough or new information that is being overlooked - or possibly even covered up - for whatever reason.

My idea on burning - yes, you can study all kinds of things related to burning - timing, soil type, local vegetation, etc, etc. At the end of the day, it’s mostly beneficial in some way if done as a patchwork. I’m all for it. But how do you get it done in more places, more often. That’s the real challenge. We keep popping up houses and roads all over the countryside, and lawyers aren’t going anywhere anytime soon I don’t suppose.

Predator control. Absolutely. More the better, and that’s obvious. How do you encourage more and more and more - and then after that - get some more people involved.

I don’t have the answers and I realize studies are necessary. I also realize some studies won’t solve anything, and maybe that’s ok, maybe not.

What’s so confusing to me is the seemingly randomness in population growth of different management tactics or lack there of. I’ve seen population growth in areas with zero turkey management going on and decreasing populations on highly managed tracts. 🤷‍♂️

Club I'm in should be ate up with turkeys, but isn't. Seems to have everything a turkey needs. I'd say its hog related, but after my cow comment, ya'll will think I'm anti beef and pork :-)

Out of curiosity.....How many acres was the place you were talking about and how many cattle were introduced??

I have a question. How do we convince timber companies that own large tracts of land across this state to do patch work burns? In my opinion that is something that needs to be looked into by folks with influence. From my personal experience they want little to do with us peasants that pay the leases. When it comes to discussing habitat improvement etc. that falls on deaf ears! We as lease holders need help convincing these companies to discuss habitat improvements with those of us that are willing to help foot the bill.

I know there are good many private landowners that burn across the state, but I am only aware of one timber company that consistently burns thousands of acres annually.

Obviously, I’m aware of the company you are referencing that burns a lot.

For everyone else - the question begins and ends with liability. That’s it - lawsuits are real. That fight will be a state by state issue to offer some protection from litigation. Will that ever happen. Highly doubtful.

Pigs love the overabundance of thick grass

I’ll add this - as you likely know, I help look after thousands of acres in the SW part of the state currently. For our management strategy, to fit current markets, burning is not beneficial in any way for us currently. Given that, how do you make it worthwhile?

Taxes. State might be interested to reduce overall fuel. Burn “x” amount every year or every other year and receive a credit.

I took my test field from less than 1% organic matter to 6%.......The webs you see (predators) are an indicator of just how vibrant the insect food web has become. I don’t know that you’ll find research papers on this but the soil OM % has huge implications on the quality and quantity of plant and insect diversity.

The place in Texas, not the hunting club noted above, was about 3000 acres total. The area of it that I hunted year before last was about 800 acres of it. They run about 1 cow per 12 acres in that area of Texas. So probably 50 or 60?

Yeah, not that type of habitat tho in my area of Alabama. Pigs love about anything where they can eat and make more pigs.

Yeah I am fully aware of the benefits for the lease holder/wildlife do not outweigh the risk/liability for the timber companies. That is why I would like to see something put in place that is a win for everyone involved. What exactly that consist of will vary based on each company. I do think the state could start with some type of tax incentive along with reducing the lability risk. I understand this is a very complicated issues due multiple factors and nothing will ever come of it.

As a manger of timberlands, you know better than anyone that a lease holders hands are tied when it comes to managing habitat. That is one way to be quickly kicked off the lease or have a nice bill to pay for the damage. It simply is not worth the risk on the lease holders end to manipulate the property in any kind of way without prior permission.

I definitely appreciate what the one timbe company does on the property I am involved with. It makes a huge difference in my personal opinion.

If you want to truly “maximize wildlife production” you need to manage for highly organic soil with the proper plant structure within an irregular mosaic of patches across the landscape…….. Patch burn grazing with cattle will accomplish these goals…..If you don’t think its worth the hassle then what else would you suggest doing to achieve the same results?? I don’t know that there are other options that would create the same end result.

There’s just not enough money in leasing land for hunting to make managing for wildlife profitable. One club I’m very familiar with pays the lease and then a fee on top of for every acre of plot. They get a credit for every plot that is on a powerline.

Something else that needs to be considered about this idea that is but isnt being mentioned in any of these videos and papers is the effect that intense burning has on the soil life. The videos DO mention that patch burn grazing reduces the intensity of the fires due to reducing the grass fuel load and I think that’s a big factor in maintaining a healthy living soil. I think you can get fires so intense with some of these heavy fuel loads that you kill off all of the soil life within the top 3-4 inches of the soil horizon where most of it lives. When that occurs then you’ve created a biological desert in the soil that has to repopulate itself……. and if we’re talking about doing such across a large stand then it may take years for soil life to return.

The reason I ask is because there are a lot of variables to consider before just making a blanket statement that “cows are bad for turkeys”……which I don’t believe is true at all. Sure, if I take a small property and introduce a bunch of cows across the entire area in a short time period then there’s likely to be some shock to the system that occurs. What I envision with anyone who was gonna try it would be to start out small and build up to whatever number of cattle that eventually accomplished the end goal you’re looking for…….

Texted my buddy in Texas and gave me a little more info. I hunted the area in March 2021 when there was plenty of turkeys, they moved the cows in in October 2021, hunted again March 2022, zero turkeys in the area. Both were opening weekend. May be an outlier, but certainly actual data on cattle and turkeys. This was natural habitat that turkeys were thriving in not cow pasture. Hopefully this will help in yalls “cow” theories even tho it doesn’t affirm it. All real data is useful in analysis.

That’s the million dollar question.

My ideas in a broad sense, would be as follows:

1. Work on landowner incentives to make the habitat impacts you refer to.
2. Focus research to establish the catalyst behind the turkey population decline. Mismanaged pine plantations took over the south, long before turkeys started declining. Could it be widespread feeding/baiting? Herbicide treatment of timberlands? Some disease? Increase in predators? Change in timber practices? Simply the ebb and flow of population trends? Hunters?
3. Study and promote less effective things, that can be easily implemented. Trapping, planting specifically for turkeys, etc.


I certainly don’t have many answers, except that burning can’t help on a broad scale, unless it’s implemented on a wide scale. And no matter how much research is produced about the wildlife benefits, landowners will not utilize it unless they get something in return or at very least shed some liability.

I like the idea of having extremely limited opportunity for out of state hunters on public land. Make it a lottery. This increases the value of turkeys on private land. Some landowners might see some value in managing for turkeys.

Some of the highest turkey populations I’ve seen were on properties with rotational grazing in prairie and forested areas. I’ve tried to promote more forbs and less grass on a few test areas with growing season fires. Dormant burning promotes grass in a big way.

I always liked hunting turkeys around cows. I always thought it was cause they scratched for bugs it their poop. At least, that’s what I always saw them doing. 🤷‍♂️

I hunted a place in TX that had cattle and it was freaking loaded with turkeys. The cattle grazed just enough to keep an open landscape, yet still had clumps of escape cover and patches for nesting. The turkeys loved it!

Glad youve chimed in. I don't think burning is gonna get it. We burn through June/july and still, areas with good broomstraw have good broomstraw after. I would love to find a way, besides cows, to promote less grass and more forbs.

Gotta get mechanical. A disk does three things: disturbs the soil, with enough passes it will kill and bury broomstraw/sage, and brings dormant seed up from below for it to sprout. Fire is great for large scale and cost efficiency, but the most bang for the buck is going to come from a big tractor and heavy ass disk.

I was thinking about the best way to describe what "early successional" habitat is to people the other day, and it occurred to me just to tell people to imagine their garden if they disked it up real nice and didn't plant anything. A years growth of weeds is early successional habitat.

Jacob's Sheep.......

I always cringe alittle when I step foot on a place that has broomsedge on it. Some folks love it, but I think they’d be surprised how much better their place would be without it. It’s hard to convince them of it, though.

How much time and cost is associated with that though when done at any scale?? Some of these plantations are 2,500.......5,000.....and even 10,000 acres

I forget what the video is on youtube, but there is a forester in Mississippi that controls several thousand acres of longleaf pine and other fallow properties with a small heard of longhorn cattle..he controlled the areas they were in by feeder training with an old truck and side by sides..he managed mostly for quail but in return they had robust populations of turkeys and deer..not cattle farming..just controlled grazing combined with chemical pre emergents and fire…the property was beautiful. I saw several ceasar kleiberg research projects incorporating cattle as a tool to control buffle grass and kr blustem that had completely taken over vast landscapes…most all of it was for the management quail..scaled quail or more commonly called blue quail in south texas. I think financially..wealthy landowners are more in tuned to the recommendation of season land managers because they naturally want to save money..and look no further than the five essential tools of wildlife management..they are simple on small or large scale with the guidance of the experienced professional. Nowadays, chemical seems to be a powerful and maybe over used tool..idk..i know the negatives of cattle and the benefits of fire and its negatives..if i had a property..i think i would try to use them all together..because they all clear somthing thats in the way…but each one diversely leaves something behind..these are my thoughts and oppinions..im a dummy tho..so..theres that🤠

How much time and cost is associated with fencing, buying the cattle, hay equipment or buying hay?

Most of the things I've watched about folks using cattle for this purpose talks about not buying hay because they're running them on a much lower stocking density than normal......

You know at some point I’m assuming you’re gonna be able to sell some cows which is income……When does disking or spraying ever pay you money back??

There was a guy..its been awhile so he may sell them an yall may know what its called..but he invented this thing you pull behind a tractor..i forget what its called..like..a soil purge extruder..idk i made that up, but anyway..it had some kind of heat source and it super heated the upper 6-12in of the soil bed so hot it killed all he dormant seed in the seed bank..it was intended to reclaim property that was rampant with invasive grass..i think it was initially designed to eradicate cogon grass..it has been a long time since ive heard it mentioned..maybe yall know all about it..i know the stories i heard was that it could completely purge soil to a virgin state and native species could be immediately introduced🤷🏻

Speaking of some guy on Youtube……..There’s also a guy on there from Florida that brought over some cattle breed from Africa that I cant remember the name of that looked like it would be ideal for understory management. His whole reasoning for using them was because of how adaptable they were to less than ideal conditions. I think at a minimum I would start out with a similar kind of breed to do the initial ground work……Once the understory was converted to more optimal conditions you could look at something more finicky that might be more profitable.

And how many of these special African cows are you going to put on how many acres?

Depends on the size of the property and the initial investment someone wanted to make……I wouldn’t start out with the idea of trying to introduce a full stocking rate to manage the whole property from day one. I would start out with something I could test the waters with in the beginning and build up over time to the number that accomplished our goals…..Sorta like running a small scale experiment before scaling it up.

Any way to accomplish the effect yall are describing with a skid steer?

No telling what something like this would cost and I still dont know that you'd get the true desired effect with anything other than some type of grazing herd.......

Thats a roller chopper..they work well..looks like they are running over small mesquite and ratama..its a less expensive alternative to a hydro axe…the roller chopper combined with a good rome disk will control woody species for a time..well enough to treat with chemical and re establish native grass or site prep burning for tree plantjng…problem here is the stumps..most places in texas that do this are using it on brush species..while they do have a very robust root system…they dont have much of a stump..thats why fire..and cattle too.. are a more effective here..they have their place here as well..just not nearly as much.

I've seen suggestions of burning in August/September for growing season burns as a way to encourage forbs. I have no personal experience with burning that time of year but it may be worth a shot. I'm going to experiment with it on some small areas.

A lot of the quail places use strip disking in the woods to discourage broomstraw and encourage forbs. It needs a couple passes at least though and it labor and equipment intensive. It certainly does work. Same with a roller drum chopper. Used all the time but does not do a great job of reducing the coverage of broomstraw.

Wouldn’t there be some tax benefits for someone who converted their quail plantation to “Such and Such Cattle Co”?? I’m not up to snuff on all the tax loopholes and such……Would fencing and equipment count as a tax write-off??

When of comes to the “debits and credits” of the idea…..here is something else to consider that has value…..

As you move this herd of cattle around from stand to stand, they’re taking a portion of this grass biomass and converting it to manure/fertilizer…….What is the value in having the landscape fertilized??.......And its not JUST the value of it as plant fertilizer……It also gives a big boost to the microbial community in the soil….it’s basically big piles of microbe stimulant….They break it down and turn it to available nutrients…..

AND…….if you look back in that research paper that Gobbler posted it talks about how their mowing treatment suffered from a buildup of residue on the soil surface which prevented seedling emergence and yada, yada as compared to the fire treatment……This is one of the variables about that situation I was referring to. If you have a grass dominated system with few forbs and legumes and you’re just throwing massive amounts of carbon down on the ground with no N to balance the cycle and efficiently decompose it…..then you ARE gonna get a build up of biomass that smothers the surface. The cattle are throwing down some of that N you’re needing to break that biomass down…. as well as balancing the grass/broadleaf/legume ratio…….which balances out that carbon/nitrogen ratio a little better…..as well as helping to stimulate the soil surface and “work” it a little through their hoofing action……There’s a lot of value hidden in managing in this manner that folks arent necessarily going to see on the surface.

I had to wait for the cows to get out the way to shoot the last gobbler to complete my Rio limit last spring in Texas. 3 out of the 4 turkeys I killed had cows around them.

It depends on what temperament your cows are, I’ve managed and hunted around cattle since I can remember. I watched a group of Brahma momma cows stomp/run a boar hog out of a pasture one morning, they would do the same to a group of turkeys. 2 miles down the road I have a group of docile angus who always have turkeys hanging around them. Horses and donkeys don’t get along with turkeys from what I’ve seen but it’s all anecdotal evidence of course. Cattle do better for the land than letting it go fallow but some herds act different in relation other animals from what I’ve seen

I had a momma cow run off a gobbler as he was coming in on a string for a buddy’s first bird. He was pissed and I was baffled.

I’ve actually done some September/October burning and got fairly good results on killing woody stems. Much better than an early growing season burn. I have converted heavy broomstraw fields to producing over 30 other species of forbs and legumes by fall discing. Eventually, usually within 2-3 growing seasons, the grass is back. Just repeat.

Ran across this video...........

Pretty interesting video about Andalusia, AL.........

Skip to the 3:30 mark in the video........

Would you say anything that’s good for quail is good for turkeys?

I'd say most, if not all management practices for quail are beneficial for other wildlife species.

A good friend that’s a biologist always said if you’re managing for something 4 inches tall, everything above it benefits

I remember reading an article in QDMA magazine about snakes as an indicator species. They indicated a good rodent population which indicated a good seed/feed system is present so everything above it benefits.

I think butterflies and song birds might be a better indicator of a healthy system rather than rats and rattlesnakes.

Cow hooves "disturb the dirt a little bit".........

https://www.fs.usda.gov/nac/practices/silvopasture.php#:~:text=Silvopasture%20is%20the%20deliberate%20integration,and%20long%2Dterm%20income%20sources.