Since this topic is far from TFT and the podcast, I started this new thread

I don't think the PBG concept is far fetched - for turkeys or quail. I have followed some of Dale Rollins stuff over the years and it has a lot of merit for mimicking natural systems. I know we had buffalo and elk here, curious as to the densities in our "prairie" vs out west. I know I had a client that had low density cows free range about half of his property and the cow area was cleaner and turkeys loved it. Turkeys also love a cattle pasture but that is usually on non native pasture.

I also agree we have an overabundance of native grass issue, especially broomstraw and bushybeard on our "managed" and burned properties. Wonder how well grazers control those. I know cows don't graze them much but the soil disturbance and fertilizer effect may change soil chemistry enough to make a difference. Lots of quail places are looking for ways to reduce the density of grasses and increase forbs and overall diversity.
You set up the program with the NRCS and Ill get some folks to sign up



I have discussed this issue with some landowners specifically for this reason. Haven't ever done it. But if cattle will help "manage" your property better for wildlife, it may be worth it to run a herd of cows on it even if it isn't for the money.

I believe the flint hills of Kansas practice this still today. But the only trees are in the drainage areas - mostly prairie.

But it’s not practical in AL on a large scale. Individual landowner - go for it. But no need to study it - not trying to be cynical about it - just realistic.

Why wouldn't an interested researcher study it. Burning alabama on a "large scale" is not practical either but we recommend it and study it as a management tool and know it has habitat and population scale benefits.

If not making money on them is not part of the objective, then it could be beneficial to a point. But by the time you fence and purchase the cattle, I think the money you spend on it could have a bigger impact spent somewhere else. For the average cattle guy in it for a profit, I just don’t think it would work.

Are we still studying the benefits of burning? I can’t wrap my head around that either. I don’t see why. It’s been proven what that can accomplish. Some landowners can utilize burning - awesome. Most can not.

I hunted a place in Texas year before last that I saw 25 gobblers one morning (all sizes). They turned cows loose in it and Stateline can attest, wasn't a turkey to be found in there this past spring. Best we can tell, that was the only difference from one spring to the next. Not sure if the hens didn't like them being there due to nesting, etc. and didn't move to the area or what??? Anyway, ya'll can keep your cows away from anywhere I turkey hunt.

I would argue there is a huge difference between "can not" and "will not". Most landowners could use it but, for a variety of reasons, chose not to.

Is burning still studied? Sure in amongst other study objectives mostly at least regarding turkeys. Do a google scholar search on Chamberlain and he has 4 out of the first 10 that come up with fire in the title. There is still much to learn about it and how critters relate to it or utilize if. Season of burn and the species that respond on different soil types... there are a bunch of aspects I would love to see. A great one would be optimum burn patch size, season and frequency along with optimal percent of the habitat in a "burned" system. We know that 1,000 acre burns are not good for turkeys and 1 acre burns would be useless. What about in between? Which burn patch size is best utilized by poults, which size best used by adult birds, is there more predation on the lower size scale or upper? We know vegetation response to burn frequency and season is different in different latitudes and soil types, so what is the optimum burn frequency in the piedmont, coastal plain, mountains??? Yea, it is still researched and there is still many questions that can be asked by inquisitive minds. The whole patch burn grazing is intriguing and not researched at all, that I know of, in the southeast.



I have hunted around cows on a few properties over the years. The areas I saw them they were nothing but a benefit and I have had to be careful pulling the trigger to not hit a cow. I have had them mess up a set up and I have used them to stalk closer to turkeys in a field. Overall I like them as they relate to turkeys.

Glad you posted that, I have listened to a bunch of those podcasts and have been interviewed on it as well. Must have missed this one!

That’s my only experience, so a small sample for sure. But bad enough that I don’t want to chance any other experiences with them, haha.

If the goal is to have a positive impact on overall turkey populations, then maybe the focus should be on methods that can actually be applied on a broad scale.

Fire & other habitat improvements are a pipe dream for the vast majority of hunters..

I don't buy that for a minute. If the MAIN way to have an impact on the overall turkey population (habitat management) isn't to be the focus then what should be? Which methods would you suggest that could be applied on a broad scale. If the vast majority of hunters are stuck hunting public land and timber leases, they have their hands are tied and there isn't much they can do but the overall turkey population does NOT live on public and and timber company leases. Fire and other habitat improvements are the ONLY way we can effect the overall turkey populations.

Let’s hope that’s not the truth…… because you won’t ever see it on a large enough scale to make a difference, without laws or subsidies changing.

Whether it’s private land or timber company doesn’t make much difference. If you can find one that will let you burn or manipulate timber, they are the exception to the rule.

I’m very much “pro” burning. But between all the clubs I’ve been in, and leases I’ve had, there’s been exactly (1) that would let me burn. And he’s a small landowner, who just doesn’t give a chit about liability.

I definitely am on a burn rotation on my private property and the owners of the hunting club I'm in believes in burning when they believe it is beneficial for the timber growth.

My question still remains. If the MAIN way to have an impact on the overall turkey population (habitat management) isn't to be the focus then what should be? Which methods would you suggest that could be applied on a broad scale. Where should the research focus? Or should we just say there isn't anything we can do?

That’s a really good question. I don’t think hunters ever wrestle with it or truly think it out. We may just need a breakthrough or new information that is being overlooked - or possibly even covered up - for whatever reason.

My idea on burning - yes, you can study all kinds of things related to burning - timing, soil type, local vegetation, etc, etc. At the end of the day, it’s mostly beneficial in some way if done as a patchwork. I’m all for it. But how do you get it done in more places, more often. That’s the real challenge. We keep popping up houses and roads all over the countryside, and lawyers aren’t going anywhere anytime soon I don’t suppose.

Predator control. Absolutely. More the better, and that’s obvious. How do you encourage more and more and more - and then after that - get some more people involved.

I don’t have the answers and I realize studies are necessary. I also realize some studies won’t solve anything, and maybe that’s ok, maybe not.

What’s so confusing to me is the seemingly randomness in population growth of different management tactics or lack there of. I’ve seen population growth in areas with zero turkey management going on and decreasing populations on highly managed tracts. 🤷‍♂️

Club I'm in should be ate up with turkeys, but isn't. Seems to have everything a turkey needs. I'd say its hog related, but after my cow comment, ya'll will think I'm anti beef and pork :-)

Out of curiosity.....How many acres was the place you were talking about and how many cattle were introduced??