Our fields have always struggled we are in Bibb Co so we are dealing with red clay and sand for the most part. For example this year we planted either a 4way or 5way can remember exactly I put a 1/2 to whole bag more than recommended rate and we could only get 9-9-9 at time instead of 13-13-13 which we would usually use. I put 3 bags of 9-9-9 per bag of seed. The fields came up fine but are always very thin. We didn't get rain right away but we got enough for them to get plenty of moisture. We are planing on getting a soil test done assuming we probably need to lime them, Any thing else we should do? Mix our own seed etc. We plant with spreader and either cover up with a drag or light discing.

Soil test and lime for sure.
Put out 34-0-0 now right before a rain will help them but until you get the ph right your kinda just pissing away time and money the lime will help the soil utilize the fertilize

9-9-9 only has 4.5 pounds of fertilizer in it. 13-13-13 only 6.5.

If you can find some urea, which is 46-0-0, put some of that out ahead of rain. Thats nearly 25 pounds of nitrogen per bag.

Got any pictures??

Most of the time on fields like this the issue is there is no "tilth" they are just hard red clay. My comment would be - that you can throw chemicals on it... you'll be doing it year in and year out over and over until the end of time. Because this really does nothing to improve your soil structure which is your long-term solution to less chemicals.

OR

You can do something to develop some tilth to the soil. IMO for that type of dirt it makes a huge difference. I would spread manure on it myself and disk it in as Step 1 and then try to start building organic matter from there. Sawdust works believe it or not. I am not sure throw-n-mow will address the underlying soil structure and those issues but CNC can chime in on this. It might alleviate or eliminate some of these issues I just view that as having a thin layer or organic matter on top of bad dirt and maybe that doesn't matter the roots on plot mixes don't run deep. When I think about this I think about the roots on Corn or something which is completely different. There is a lot out there on cover crops improving tilth in a no-till system but I don't really understand to what extent... you don't incorporate it into the sub-soil it's just organic matter on top. That's a research project for CNC maybe....

Tilth is something that can't really be quantified easily... this is why you never read about this in the scientific sense. Dr. Deer isn't going to talk about it. BUT every good Farmer understands it.

Start by getting your PH correct and using a good fertilizer. Unless my soil is almost perfect and I just dont need to add much at all in the way of nutrients, 9-9-9 and 13-13-13 are just wasted money in my book. If your soil is poor and PH is correct, you need to be pouring the nutrients to whatever it is that you're planting and there is almost nothing but "shot rock"/filler in 9-9-9. In 50lbs of 9-9-9, you've got 13.5lbs of nutrients and 36.5lbs of useless filler.

Start with getting a good soil test and getting your PH corrected. Then you might want to incorporate planting some sunn hemp, buckwheat, or other summer foods that are good soil builders and generate large amounts of biomass that you can incorporate into the soil to start building the "tilth" that Goat is describing above.

This would be a great first step to get things turned around. Long term though, soil tilth is maintained by decomposed organic matter (humus) forming into soil aggregates. Its taken deeper into the soil profile through plant roots. As summer annuals die, their root systems die and decompose leaving channels of OM…..The great thing about native summer vegetation that folks like to call weeds….. is that if you have a diverse array of them then you have some that will tolerate the harsher subsoil conditions and take the OM deeper into the soil profile where the roots of the following year’s plant community will follow the trail that they have already blazed.

Soil has chemical AND physical properties……..When we talk about soil tilth, a lot of that (not all) revolves around the physical properties. Properly functioning soil needs structure just like the framework of a house. It’s the actual arrangement and design of the components. If you run a wrecking ball through a house then you don’t have a house anymore…..you have a pile of wood. The same with soil…..without the structure you just have a pile of wood otherwise called dirt……That’s not soil.

my only comment would be that when starting from ground zero ... and I'm thinking about a place that looks like a loading deck... the distribution of organic matter through the plant root system doesn't seem to be very quick IMO. Although I am sure it would improve significantly year over year... When I break new ground in like this I typically plant something that will produce a lot of organic matter. Then I bush hog it but what I am really doing is shredding. I'm chopping it up as fine as possible then I running a chisel plow with twisted shovels through it seems to help speed this process up for me. I understand most hunters don't have anything like that. I can probably get one in shape in a season or two but it's still a process.

I'm also not saying just letting it lay via throw-n-mow won't do this either on a food plot because the root systems are not that deep we are basically sowing the equivalent of a cover crop in a farming scenario. Possibly equal results in a similar timeframe in the top soil layer. I could get onboard with that.


If you have poor soil you can do something about it. Corn will grow in a crack in a concrete parting lot if you throw enough chemicals on it and provide it enough water. Getting your soil in better condition saves time and money. IMO a whole lot of both.

I agree with you on starting at ground zero…..those are pioneer conditions. There’s a process in soil rebuilding that is just like clear cutting a forest……..over the years you’re going through more and more changes that are working toward “climax” conditions……we’re talking about in terms of structurally, chemically, and biologically………If you keep resetting the process and don’t allow it to progess then you’re keeping yourself in those pioneer conditions. The true fertility comes more and more as you move toward those climax conditions. Once you get things out of the gutter the idea is to simply help nature along and much of the time just stay out of the way. We spend a lot of effort fighting against the grain. These pics were taken probably 10 years ago or more…..the spots painted orange are crabgrass roots. The bottom of the hole is 48 inches deep and the soil pH in that layer is 5.0

Also can you compare ag lime versus pelletized cnc? Rate, onset, and longevity..

In terms of sandy soil that is. I.e. Macon county Al

I’m not sure on that one…..All I’ve ever used is ag lime. The key to longevity in sandy soil though is to build up a layer of organic soil so that you have some holding capacity. Sand alone has very little.

Do you think op (and in general) would benefit from planting summertime pearl millet or sunhemp. Or any summertime crop for that matter.

It kinda just depends on how bad the conditions are that he’s dealing with. Some soil conditions are so bad that its hard to get anything like that to thrive well enough to produce the biomass you’re looking for….especially if its small plots and you’re competing with deer browsing as well. In those type situations you’re better off adding soil amendments like lime, chicken litter, fertilizer……and let nature decide what is best suited for summer vegetation…..you’re just pampering it along. If I was gonna plant something in these situations then it would likely be millet……but if your field is trying to grow crabgrass in the beginning I wouldn’t fight against it just to replace it with millet. There's likely a reason crabgrass is growing....its because its suited to thrive in poor conditions as a pioneer species. A lot of this is situational though and it just depends on the individual field.

Get a complete soil analysis from Waters Ag or Ward Labs. Look at base saturation #’s. Ca plus Mg should equal close to 80%. You want your Mg near 15-20% in sandy ground. Dolomitic limestone is probably what you’ll need. Pelletized lime is just finely ground lime with a binder. It is a dolomitic lime.

K-mag is another option to get Mg if your Ca levels are adequate. The Mg will act to make the soil less permeable. Either way, in sandy ground you’ll need to add smaller amounts of fertilizer more frequently.

I have a place in Bibb also. It's lucky to grow pine trees. I've planted Dakon radishes trying to get soil tilth. One farmer told me they're soil test said they needed 6--8 tons per acre, don't remember which. I've added lawn waste trying to make it better. Not much helps.

You didn't say what rate you seeded/acre or the size of the plot. 13.5 lbs of nitrogen(150 lbs of 9-9-9) might be enough for a small garden but not close to enough for a decent size food plot. First step should always be a soil test. With the cost of planting this year, you needed to know what you were dealing with before getting started

Until your PH is right, you are going to struggle. Get a soil test done and add bulk ag lime. Then plan on, based upon my experience, about a year for it to really start changing the PH on your soil.


This is what I have found works for me with harder clay. You need to subsoil it. I would add lime, then subsoil it, and then plant something like sunn hemp ahead of rain. Don't disk it, just subsoil it. Or sunn hemp and buckwheat. Then in the fall, bush hog it, disk it, and plant your fall crops. Go heavy on cereal grains, but also do radishes. In the spring, after turkey season, go back out, and broadcast sunn hemp again, and add clay peas, and then bush hog the field, and use the tall cereals as mulch. Go lighter on the sunn hemp this time. Then in the fall, broadcast cereals, brassica's or whatever you want to plant into the standing beans and leave it alone. Be sure to get some innoculent for the sunn hemp and peas. That helps too.

DIsking creates hardpan. On every field I had issues with, once I subsoiled the field, its output increased significantly. Most people don't realize your average deer club does the same thing. They go out, disk fields in the fall, plant the cheapest 3 or 4 way mix, and put out triple 13 at a couple bags per acre and call it good. If they plant in the spring, they go out and disk again, and then plant peas. In August, they come out and bush hog the peas, spray the field and let it sit for a couple weeks until club workdays, and plant ahead of rain, after they disk it again.

I have something in fields growing all the time the deer can eat. And disking kills earthworms. You want earthworms. If you see them, you are getting there.