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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: redgineer] #3804014
12/04/22 11:55 PM
12/04/22 11:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 13,242
Elmore County
Frankie Offline
Booner
Frankie  Offline
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Posts: 13,242
Elmore County
Originally Posted by redgineer
What do yall think about hunt clubs full of itchy trigger fingers with antler restrictions, and relentless doe slaughter? I saw an 8:1 doe:buck ratio at a club one year. I'm not sure how it effects the population long term, but I know those were the most pressured deer I've ever hunted, including public land.


None of my business. I wouldn't pay to join the club either

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3804025
12/05/22 02:39 AM
12/05/22 02:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,223
Montgomery, AL
F
Forrestgump1 Online content
8 point
Forrestgump1  Online Content
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F
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,223
Montgomery, AL
Why is it that it’s always more does than bucks. I’m pretty sure it’s the way god designed it. And I think hunter satisfaction is far more important than ratio. Start going and stop seeing and watch the whole conversation switch. I’d rather go and see a field full of does than one deer in 6 sits. I like killing a big buck as much as the next guy but you can’t eat the horns.

Last edited by Forrestgump1; 12/05/22 02:40 AM.
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: CNC] #3804066
12/05/22 06:48 AM
12/05/22 06:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,735
Marshall County
FurFlyin Online content
Freak of Nature
FurFlyin  Online Content
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Marshall County
Originally Posted by CNC
Coyotes probably ate them


Yes.


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3804176
12/05/22 09:15 AM
12/05/22 09:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 7,662
B'ham
Goatkiller Online content
14 point
Goatkiller  Online Content
14 point
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Posts: 7,662
B'ham
Shoot does.... have less deer and less bucks. Shooting your deer so they get bred on time is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.

Really simple as that.

Seriously. You can make a 2 pager explaining how or why you think I am wrong.... but 100% of the time I can statistically prove the more deer you shoot the less deer you will have.

Period. 100% of the time. That cannot be argued and has nothing to do with "The Science"..... (say that like Dr. Fauci in your head when you read it)

If you have a Buck/Doe ratio problem you have a trigger finger issue. Alabama is trying to manage based on a theory instead of common sense. The vast majority of hunters are NOT hunting on a piece of land anywhere remotely close to big enough for this type of management philosophy that is EXACTLY why it doesn't work.

It doesn't work. We've been doing this for decades and still don't have the age structure anywhere close to where it needs to be in this State.

Next person that says they have "too many deer" please post up some pictures of starving deer with their ribs showing so that we can all get on the same page about what that even means. Breeding late? Tell your neighbors to stop shooting all the spikes they see.



HI, I'm Goatkiller. My pronouns are "Pee / Nis". I was assigned male at birth and identify as a Lesbian.
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: Goatkiller] #3804189
12/05/22 09:38 AM
12/05/22 09:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
Seriously. You can make a 2 pager explaining how or why you think I am wrong.... but 100% of the time I can statistically prove the more deer you shoot the less deer you will have.

Period. 100% of the time. That cannot be argued and has nothing to do with "The Science"..... (say that like Dr. Fauci in your head when you read it)



Not completely true…. For example, in my scenario where we don’t shoot any does, road mortality eventually curtails the expanding doe populations…….You could actually have hunters kill the excess and prevent “expansion” from taking place……which would in turn simply shift the road mortality to hunter mortality…..the number of deer left would ultimately be the same……This is compensatory mortality. The problem we have in many areas is that we have shot WAY more than just what would have been killed on the road…..We have gone from simply limiting expansion to creating deflation if you want to call it that. Many areas could hold a lot more does than they currently have.

Last edited by CNC; 12/05/22 09:39 AM.

"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3804216
12/05/22 10:06 AM
12/05/22 10:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
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Awbern, AL
The “sweet spot” would be if we allowed all of the available doe habitat to fill up with whatever “X” it will support and then only shoot the amount that suppresses the road mortality from the spill over of burgeoning or expanding herds. This is what is trying to be accomplished through regs but we kinda tend to swing the pendulum back and forth past the desired goal. We’re riding it out right now in hopes that the pendulum eventually settles out closer to that sweet spot…..Its kinda hard to though when you have biologists still naïvely towing the same old company line.

Last edited by CNC; 12/05/22 10:10 AM.

"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3804219
12/05/22 10:08 AM
12/05/22 10:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 7,662
B'ham
Goatkiller Online content
14 point
Goatkiller  Online Content
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Posts: 7,662
B'ham
CNC you and I are pretty much in agreement. You can factor in deer getting hit by cars on the highway and deer dying of disease or other natural causes... we lump that into a statistical analysis.

But what is completely true is that you have no control over that. You have control over your trigger and your tigger only. The plan with your rifle is to manage the deer herd for Mother Nature because she can't do it correctly? Wrong. When you shoot a deer you have added yet another external influence on their mortality rate just like an automobile on the road. However, you can only control what you have control over. And since you can't control how many will jump in front of a vehicle you have to factor that in along with what you intend to do with your rifle.

Simply - if you have a bunch of deer getting hit by cars near your property then you will have to adjust your shooting habits accordingly. A dead deer is a dead deer doesn't matter how it happened. Insurance claim Data would be the easy source for this information but that has ZERO to do with your little piece of heaven even if you could get that data by County. Which is a good example of how you can't manage on the "whole". Also... Self management isn't going to happen just like all the millions of people who broke the speed limit going to work this morning.

What Alabama's DCNR believes, still after 20+ years... is simply that you can manage on the whole AND that you also have control over everything including what you neighbor is killing 10 yards outside your property line (self management). It's completely stupid and typical of an academic theory. This is where this whole BS theory of shoot more deer have more deer falls completely apart. 90% maybe closer to 100% don't have enough property to do this. So you put in the effort and work but your neighbor doesn't... you fail. This is the biggest problem IMO and when you want to discuss people not hunting or enjoying their efforts nobody talks about these hunters.... we only discuss those that want to indiscriminately blast something and what their "rights" are and how you can't eat horns or we are going to ruin their enjoyment. Well, what about the people that want to kill something other than a 2 yo. 6 pointer? What about them? Alabama has made it nearly impossible for these people or at least put virtually nothing in their favor.

But coming back to Statistics... 100% of the time.... if you blast a deer. You will have less deer. 100% of the time.

I'm waiting on pictures of starving deer. If anyone has too many "deer" I'd sure love to see what all those starving deer looks like we need to get the State over there quick to "study" this because it doesn't exist anywhere. It's like Democrats saying there is a White Supremist behind every piece of shrubbery. Where?



HI, I'm Goatkiller. My pronouns are "Pee / Nis". I was assigned male at birth and identify as a Lesbian.
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: Goatkiller] #3804373
12/05/22 01:40 PM
12/05/22 01:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
CNC you and I are pretty much in agreement.

I'm waiting on pictures of starving deer. If anyone has too many "deer" I'd sure love to see what all those starving deer looks like we need to get the State over there quick to "study" this because it doesn't exist anywhere. It's like Democrats saying there is a White Supremist behind every piece of shrubbery. Where?




thumbup popcorn


"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3804423
12/05/22 02:45 PM
12/05/22 02:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 5,706
Chelsea
L
Lockjaw Offline
12 point
Lockjaw  Offline
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Posts: 5,706
Chelsea
All I know is the biologist for the state came out and looked at my lease and recommended we kill 15 doe's the first year, and get them aged. She also said that you are missing 70% of your deer if you aren't in the woods versus a green field. If I look at game check numbers for Shelby Co for last deer season, more bucks were killed than doe's. Dr. Grant Woods told me the best I could hope for on twin fawns was 48/52% one way or another.

All I know for sure was when I was in college, and we had doe season, I could sit on a green field and see deer every day. If we needed meat, we would shoot a spike, or wait until doe season, or use archery. When you are in a club, and they shoot every doe that walks out on a green field, guess what happens? They stop. A doe is no different than a buck if you pressure it, it will be nocturnal too.

I personally think the buck limit needs to be higher. And the doe a day limit needs to be changed to something much lower, like 5 per season.

Here is simple math. Shelby Co has a deer density of 30 to 60 deer per square mile. I am on the lower end of that, I feel certain. I have 1050 acres, which means I have around 50 to 100 deer on the property basically. If I was 1 to 1, which I am not, but assuming I was, that means I have 25 to 50 doe's. If I have 25, and I kill 15, that leaves 10 to breed, and at best, I have 10 doe fawns as a result. If none die from Yotes, then going into the next season I have 20 doe's. There is a sustainable number you have to have to kill a certain number of doe's and maintain your population. Once you kill more than that number, your doe herd will drop, and you will see way more immature bucks than anything else.

Here is food for thought. On 1050 acre's, unless all my adjacent landowners are on a "let the bucks grow" program, what chance do we have if we let ours grow to produce a really nice one? I say not much. It's like being in a club that is 6 pt or better. If I pass a small 6 to let it grow, what guarantee do I have the next guy won't kill it? I have none.

I have some nice 6pt's right now I am watching on camera. There are probably 4 of them. Most any guy in my club would shoot one if it walked out in front of them. So, my letting it go accomplishes what? If I am lucky, no one else sees him, and he gets to live another year.

I just wonder if we wouldn't be better off going back to doe season, and upping the buck limit, and letting people shoot what they want.

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: Lockjaw] #3804476
12/05/22 03:45 PM
12/05/22 03:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 4,282
Georgia and Missouri
Semo Offline
10 point
Semo  Offline
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Posts: 4,282
Georgia and Missouri
Originally Posted by Lockjaw
All I know is the biologist for the state came out and looked at my lease and recommended we kill 15 doe's the first year, and get them aged. She also said that you are missing 70% of your deer if you aren't in the woods versus a green field. If I look at game check numbers for Shelby Co for last deer season, more bucks were killed than doe's. Dr. Grant Woods told me the best I could hope for on twin fawns was 48/52% one way or another.

All I know for sure was when I was in college, and we had doe season, I could sit on a green field and see deer every day. If we needed meat, we would shoot a spike, or wait until doe season, or use archery. When you are in a club, and they shoot every doe that walks out on a green field, guess what happens? They stop. A doe is no different than a buck if you pressure it, it will be nocturnal too.

I personally think the buck limit needs to be higher. And the doe a day limit needs to be changed to something much lower, like 5 per season.

Here is simple math. Shelby Co has a deer density of 30 to 60 deer per square mile. I am on the lower end of that, I feel certain. I have 1050 acres, which means I have around 50 to 100 deer on the property basically. If I was 1 to 1, which I am not, but assuming I was, that means I have 25 to 50 doe's. If I have 25, and I kill 15, that leaves 10 to breed, and at best, I have 10 doe fawns as a result. If none die from Yotes, then going into the next season I have 20 doe's. There is a sustainable number you have to have to kill a certain number of doe's and maintain your population. Once you kill more than that number, your doe herd will drop, and you will see way more immature bucks than anything else.

Here is food for thought. On 1050 acre's, unless all my adjacent landowners are on a "let the bucks grow" program, what chance do we have if we let ours grow to produce a really nice one? I say not much. It's like being in a club that is 6 pt or better. If I pass a small 6 to let it grow, what guarantee do I have the next guy won't kill it? I have none.

I have some nice 6pt's right now I am watching on camera. There are probably 4 of them. Most any guy in my club would shoot one if it walked out in front of them. So, my letting it go accomplishes what? If I am lucky, no one else sees him, and he gets to live another year.

I just wonder if we wouldn't be better off going back to doe season, and upping the buck limit, and letting people shoot what they want.





I made a model for both buck and doe harvest that also includes age cohorts. But, the model is only as good as the data that was put in. Mine doesnt account for dispersal (in or out) because those figures are impossible to know. I spent a lot of time on the model but most of the data came from refuges and agrucultural land. Survival was really too high compared to the property I actually hunt. But the bigger issue is disease outbreaks. Sure, you can make a model account for them (mine does) but when you see how much variabilty there is over decades long reproduction and mortality rates modeling at the fine scale becomes difficult. That is why the states dont do it.

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3804491
12/05/22 03:58 PM
12/05/22 03:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,584
Alabama
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3FFarms Offline OP
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3FFarms  Offline OP
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Alabama
Here are the facts of what I know…

Weights are on a 5 year decline
Fawn recruitment is poor
Coyote numbers are up
Does are dry

Still have plenty of deer but worried about the younger age structure.

My takeaways are harvest more mouths (or don’t based on a couple of posts) and aggressively pursue coyotes.


Originally Posted by CNC
Ya'll are just overthinking it now

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3804497
12/05/22 04:07 PM
12/05/22 04:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,218
Right behind you
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Fancy
Mbrock  Offline
Fancy
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Right behind you
Brandon, give me a call some time and I’ll help you. 😉

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3805039
12/06/22 08:05 AM
12/06/22 08:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
Originally Posted by 3FFarms
Here are the facts of what I know…

Weights are on a 5 year decline
Fawn recruitment is poor
Coyote numbers are up
Does are dry

Still have plenty of deer but worried about the younger age structure.

My takeaways are harvest more mouths (or don’t based on a couple of posts) and aggressively pursue coyotes.


Just curious but when you say weights are down......how much are you talking about? Has there been any change in corn feeding habits during this time?


"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3805096
12/06/22 08:53 AM
12/06/22 08:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 7,662
B'ham
Goatkiller Online content
14 point
Goatkiller  Online Content
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B'ham
If you have a young age structure someone is shooting the deer.

Because if nobody shoots a deer..... you will have 5 year old deer.

100% of the time.

You have coyotes eating a lot of fawns.... yet you are still seeing plenty of deer but we think the weights are down. None of that adds up.

You cannot manage your deer herd with your rifle. That is a fools errand for 9 out of 10 maybe 10 out of 10 hunters. You aren't hunting in the Big Pen.

If you aren't seeing deer in the plots.... you have too much hunting pressure IMO. Full Circle back to the beginning. Stop the killing. Your hunting will drastically improve provided the problem is not your neighbors trigger habits. If so, then you have a much bigger problem.

If you are not shooting many yourself it sounds like you might have Lockjaw's associates in your neighborhood blasting 6 pointers... because if it walks past the next guy...it's dead. Someone's got to get it first.




HI, I'm Goatkiller. My pronouns are "Pee / Nis". I was assigned male at birth and identify as a Lesbian.
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3805288
12/06/22 12:26 PM
12/06/22 12:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 784
Mobile, AL
P
Pwyse Offline
4 point
Pwyse  Offline
4 point
P
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 784
Mobile, AL
It’s amazing to me how there can be two opinions on this topic and they be so far apart from each other. Reminds me of politics 😂

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3805480
12/06/22 02:58 PM
12/06/22 02:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,584
Alabama
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CNC and Goatkiller: to address a couple of points y’all raised…and I always knew y’all were best friends anyhow…🤣

Weights have decreased about 5-10% from when I first joined, which would have been 2018-2019 season.

When I say we have plenty of deer, we’re above average for the surrounding area. You can take it from me, or several others here on this site that have a hand in what we’re doing, our browsing pressure is intense on fields.

I think we have 2 problems…

1) Hunting Pressure which leads to less deer sightings
2) Coyotes on fawning

I don’t know what to do about the decrease in weights. Our fields show more pressure than what I remember seeing that first year but deer sightings overall are down. And I’m not a food plot sitter.

We made an effort this year to correct some bucks that were being shot that shouldn’t be. It’s been marginally successful, but we’re heading in the right direction.

Both of those (pressure and coyotes) are something we can try to correct.


Originally Posted by CNC
Ya'll are just overthinking it now

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3805527
12/06/22 04:02 PM
12/06/22 04:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,710
Awbern, AL
I would at least do one good trapping run per year to keep the same packs of yotes from living on your property year after year……I think the longer individual yotes and their offspring work the same area the more efficient they become at utilizing the areas “resources”…….Other yotes will eventually fill back in but it’ll be new ones that are not likely to be as impactful……I’d want to constantly have new dogs filling back in versus the same packs making a career out of your place. I think theres likely cases where they become much more viscous killers when this happens…….One thing I pretty certain they learn to do is to check food plots and roadways in the fall looking for dead and injured deer…..The more of it they are exposed to, the more they adapt their behavior to targeting the local deer as a key food source. This is when they start checking healthy ones looking for the weak which causes “pressure”. If a buck gets injured or run down during the rut now, he has a constant predator roaming around waiting to take advantage of it. Two or three yotes can take down a grown deer with a busted up leg


As far as the weights……there’s a lot more questions I’d have about the “data” that was obtained before making any kind of judgement about a 5-10% difference……..How many deer are we talking about sampling each season???.......Are we counting does and bucks together or are we just talking about doe weights??.......If its just doe weights have y’all clipped off the older does in the herd and lowered the average age of the does being sampled??.......Etc….etc….etc…….My point being that there are a lot of variables at play here deciding whether or not you’re looking at good data. ……So I don’t know how much stock I’d put in a 5-10% variation……and without other reasons to do so, I don’t think I would use that alone as a reason to make changes

Last edited by CNC; 12/06/22 04:03 PM.

"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: Goatkiller] #3805542
12/06/22 04:20 PM
12/06/22 04:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,218
Right behind you
Mbrock Offline
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Mbrock  Offline
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Posts: 6,218
Right behind you
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
You cannot manage your deer herd with your rifle. That is a fools errand for 9 out of 10 maybe 10 out of 10 hunters. You aren't hunting in the Big Pen.


Scratching my head goatkiller. This one needs explaining. EVERY trigger pull is a management decision. To suggest we don’t manage deer with rifles is very false. If that’s the case let’s petition the state to have a 12 month rifle season with no bag limit. We’ll see how that plays out.

Midwest states have very few gun days for what reason? To manage a deer herd.

The southeast has extended gun days for what reason? To manage a deer herd.

It’s been brought up a few times by you that the biologists, particularly those with the state, promote killing all the does. That’s not true. It hasn’t been suggested in this or the other thread either. You can’t put words into professional deer managers mouths and expect to be taken seriously. It don’t work that way.

For the record, other than 3FF, unless there are other members on this site, I’m the only one who’s commented who’s actually been on the property. 😉

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: CNC] #3805611
12/06/22 05:28 PM
12/06/22 05:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 13,242
Elmore County
Frankie Offline
Booner
Frankie  Offline
Booner
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 13,242
Elmore County
Originally Posted by CNC
I would at least do one good trapping run per year to keep the same packs of yotes from living on your property year after year……I think the longer individual yotes and their offspring work the same area the more efficient they become at utilizing the areas “resources”…….Other yotes will eventually fill back in but it’ll be new ones that are not likely to be as impactful……I’d want to constantly have new dogs filling back in versus the same packs making a career out of your place. I think theres likely cases where they become much more viscous killers when this happens…….One thing I pretty certain they learn to do is to check food plots and roadways in the fall looking for dead and injured deer…..The more of it they are exposed to, the more they adapt their behavior to targeting the local deer as a key food source. This is when they start checking healthy ones looking for the weak which causes “pressure”. If a buck gets injured or run down during the rut now, he has a constant predator roaming around waiting to take advantage of it. Two or three yotes can take down a grown deer with a busted up leg


As far as the weights……there’s a lot more questions I’d have about the “data” that was obtained before making any kind of judgement about a 5-10% difference……..How many deer are we talking about sampling each season???.......Are we counting does and bucks together or are we just talking about doe weights??.......If its just doe weights have y’all clipped off the older does in the herd and lowered the average age of the does being sampled??.......Etc….etc….etc…….My point being that there are a lot of variables at play here deciding whether or not you’re looking at good data. ……So I don’t know how much stock I’d put in a 5-10% variation……and without other reasons to do so, I don’t think I would use that alone as a reason to make changes



That's way I kill ever coyote I see . They may move back tomorrow or next year but like you and me they got to find the recourse they need . Nothing wrong with buying time

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff [Re: 3FFarms] #3805690
12/06/22 06:23 PM
12/06/22 06:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 211
Xroads
B
Backwoods cowboy Offline
4 point
Backwoods cowboy  Offline
4 point
B
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 211
Xroads
Goat killer, you have to understand in today's society education has overtaken common sense. I'm uneducated but completely understand and agree, there's no possible way to get more deer by shooting more deer. One biological fact that is being overlooked is that nature attempts to correct the ratio on its own. So if there is a given area where there are to many does mother nature will have more doe fawns than buck fawns. Unfortunately mother nature doesn't do this according to roads and property lines! So if a given group of does has a majority buck birth ratio but you keep killing young bucks, no gain it that area. If you shoot alot of does the same is true just opposite. The bottom line is, want more deer shoot less deer, want older deer shoot older deer!

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