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Dry does: too many does spinoff
#3803472
12/04/22 02:07 PM
12/04/22 02:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,778 Alabama
3FFarms
OP
ALDEER SPONSOR
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OP
ALDEER SPONSOR
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,778
Alabama
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Didn’t want to highjack that thread, but have a question. As a club, I believe we’ve killed 8 or 10 and they have all been dry. Is this the good Lord’s way of regulating numbers on his own? Fawn sightings are down. Still plenty of deer, probably above average for the area. Year round food. Good diversity of timber. Plots show excessive browse.
3 of us hunted yesterday afternoon in pretty poor weather and we saw a total of 2 deer. Combo of being in the woods and on greenfields.
A cam on another field that had no one sitting on it had at least 11 deer in one pic.
If you take the three hunter sightings, it would seem we were devoid of deer. If you take the cam intel, seems we’re overrun.
What intel does the fact that all harvested does being dry give us?
Ya'll are just overthinking it now
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803611
12/04/22 04:35 PM
12/04/22 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727
Awbarn, AL
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Coyotes probably ate them
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803639
12/04/22 05:12 PM
12/04/22 05:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,608 Clanton
Turkey_neck
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,608
Clanton
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I try to shoot big lone does I don’t want to shoot my good momma’s.
Would walk over a naked woman to get to a gobblin turkey!
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: CNC]
#3803648
12/04/22 05:16 PM
12/04/22 05:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,663 Alabama
OlTimer
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,663
Alabama
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Coyotes probably ate them My thoughts as well.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803667
12/04/22 05:40 PM
12/04/22 05:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,046 USA
marshmud991
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,046
USA
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We’ve killed 4 does so far. 3 of the 4 were lone does and the 4th one had a good size yearling with here. They ranged from 83-105lbs. All 4 were wet. We are also seeing lots of does with fawns that look like it’s not long they lost their spots. Quite a few does seem and on camera with twin fawns. Kinda makes in hard to some doe killing. I’m not complaining. I like to see all those deer. However the way this trip is going, you wouldn’t think there’s a deer in Alabama.
It's hard to kiss the lips at night that chews your a$$ all day long.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: OlTimer]
#3803791
12/04/22 08:10 PM
12/04/22 08:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,778 Alabama
3FFarms
OP
ALDEER SPONSOR
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OP
ALDEER SPONSOR
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,778
Alabama
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Coyotes probably ate them My thoughts as well. Could be, we have a healthy population and are doing all we can to stay ahead of them. Just thought it odd that 100% of the does harvested have been dry.
Ya'll are just overthinking it now
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803859
12/04/22 09:21 PM
12/04/22 09:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,049 Right behind you
Mbrock
Fancy
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Fancy
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 8,049
Right behind you
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Ok. Here’s how a lot of hunters think, mostly those who came through the deer restocking/herd repopulation era: Does are to be highly protected because they make babies. Gotta protect them all. More does equals more deer. Most of these are in favor of shooting bucks, any buck, over a doe. That don’t sound too bad except…….
The breeding habits of white-tailed deer do not work like that. In a given area, most does are going to enter their estrous cycle within a 10-14 day window of each other. Let’s say you have a population of 100 deer over a given area. If your ratio is 3:1 that’s 75 does to 25 bucks. A buck will tend or stay with a hot doe for 1-3 days and breed her multiple times. So during the first few days of estrous let’s say those 25 bucks are able to breed 20-30 of those does. Some of the bucks are not going to breed. Some will breed more than one doe. That leaves 40+ does unbred. The second half of that first cycle let’s say the majority do get bred. Let’s just use 60 total for the first 10 days. Also in that time frame 30% of your bucks have been taken out of the population from hunting mortality and rut mortality. So now you have 15 does left that did not get bred the first cycle. You have 17 bucks remaining who are already run down from chasing/breeding for two weeks. Those does come into estrous again 28 days later and 17 bucks are competing for 15 does and will absolutely destroy their physical fitness in order to get it done. They should be recovering from rut and yet now they are doing it all over again with more competition than the first rut. If your population is skewed any more than 3:1 you begin to see a pretty good percentage of does not getting bred at all. If they’re not getting bred, that is not contributing to recruitment. It is hindering it. In areas with high coyote populations who’ve learned to prey on fawns, longer breeding seasons increase the amount of time coyotes have to hone in that predatory behavior, leading to more fawns killed by coyotes. Not less. Having populations with high numbers of does and few bucks is more harmful to reproductive success than helpful. Habitat also contributes to success or failure. High quality habitat with good buck:doe ratios and predator control can have phenomenal reproductive success and healthy deer vs the alternative of poor habitat, high deer populations and low reproduction from the stresses they face in nutrition, depredation and competition for resources.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Mbrock]
#3803867
12/04/22 09:30 PM
12/04/22 09:30 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,910 Cullman
CKyleC
(Can't Keep It Up...)
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(Can't Keep It Up...)
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,910
Cullman
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Ok. Here’s how a lot of hunters think, mostly those who came through the deer restocking/herd repopulation era: Does are to be highly protected because they make babies. Gotta protect them all. More does equals more deer. Most of these are in favor of shooting bucks, any buck, over a doe. That don’t sound too bad except…….
The breeding habits of white-tailed deer do not work like that. In a given area, most does are going to enter their estrous cycle within a 10-14 day window of each other. Let’s say you have a population of 100 deer over a given area. If your ratio is 3:1 that’s 75 does to 25 bucks. A buck will tend or stay with a hot doe for 1-3 days and breed her multiple times. So during the first few days of estrous let’s say those 25 bucks are able to breed 20-30 of those does. Some of the bucks are not going to breed. Some will breed more than one doe. That leaves 40+ does unbred. The second half of that first cycle let’s say the majority do get bred. Let’s just use 60 total for the first 10 days. Also in that time frame 30% of your bucks have been taken out of the population from hunting mortality and rut mortality. So now you have 15 does left that did not get bred the first cycle. You have 17 bucks remaining who are already run down from chasing/breeding for two weeks. Those does come into estrous again 28 days later and 17 bucks are competing for 15 does and will absolutely destroy their physical fitness in order to get it done. They should be recovering from rut and yet now they are doing it all over again with more competition than the first rut. If your population is skewed any more than 3:1 you begin to see a pretty good percentage of does not getting bred at all. If they’re not getting bred, that is not contributing to recruitment. It is hindering it. In areas with high coyote populations who’ve learned to prey on fawns, longer breeding seasons increase the amount of time coyotes have to hone in that predatory behavior, leading to more fawns killed by coyotes. Not less. Having populations with high numbers of does and few bucks is more harmful to reproductive success than helpful. Habitat also contributes to success or failure. High quality habitat with good buck:doe ratios and predator control can have phenomenal reproductive success and healthy deer vs the alternative of poor habitat, high deer populations and low reproduction from the stresses they face in nutrition, depredation and competition for resources. I need to compile your posts in to a pdf so I can reference them later and group them according to specific subject.
"In Alabama, we prefer to kill small bucks on big properties"-Turkey247
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803893
12/04/22 09:55 PM
12/04/22 09:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727
Awbarn, AL
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This is what I’m talking about with managing like you’re in a box ^^^^^…..Just because you have 100 does on your property……why would you assume there are only 25 bucks in a 3-5 mile radius of you to breed them???.......Why would you also assume that every other property around you also had 100 does or the same female density to be bred??.......What if you’re the only parcel holding 100 does and all the others only have 10 because they shot theirs?? It all unfolds on a landscape scale and not in a box
Last edited by CNC; 12/04/22 09:57 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Mbrock]
#3803917
12/04/22 10:15 PM
12/04/22 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,432 Mobile, AL
Pwyse
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,432
Mobile, AL
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Ok. Here’s how a lot of hunters think, mostly those who came through the deer restocking/herd repopulation era: Does are to be highly protected because they make babies. Gotta protect them all. More does equals more deer. Most of these are in favor of shooting bucks, any buck, over a doe. That don’t sound too bad except…….
The breeding habits of white-tailed deer do not work like that. In a given area, most does are going to enter their estrous cycle within a 10-14 day window of each other. Let’s say you have a population of 100 deer over a given area. If your ratio is 3:1 that’s 75 does to 25 bucks. A buck will tend or stay with a hot doe for 1-3 days and breed her multiple times. So during the first few days of estrous let’s say those 25 bucks are able to breed 20-30 of those does. Some of the bucks are not going to breed. Some will breed more than one doe. That leaves 40+ does unbred. The second half of that first cycle let’s say the majority do get bred. Let’s just use 60 total for the first 10 days. Also in that time frame 30% of your bucks have been taken out of the population from hunting mortality and rut mortality. So now you have 15 does left that did not get bred the first cycle. You have 17 bucks remaining who are already run down from chasing/breeding for two weeks. Those does come into estrous again 28 days later and 17 bucks are competing for 15 does and will absolutely destroy their physical fitness in order to get it done. They should be recovering from rut and yet now they are doing it all over again with more competition than the first rut. If your population is skewed any more than 3:1 you begin to see a pretty good percentage of does not getting bred at all. If they’re not getting bred, that is not contributing to recruitment. It is hindering it. In areas with high coyote populations who’ve learned to prey on fawns, longer breeding seasons increase the amount of time coyotes have to hone in that predatory behavior, leading to more fawns killed by coyotes. Not less. Having populations with high numbers of does and few bucks is more harmful to reproductive success than helpful. Habitat also contributes to success or failure. High quality habitat with good buck:doe ratios and predator control can have phenomenal reproductive success and healthy deer vs the alternative of poor habitat, high deer populations and low reproduction from the stresses they face in nutrition, depredation and competition for resources. Boom. That’s it. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain but can’t seem to get my point across. Thanks buddy
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803937
12/04/22 10:38 PM
12/04/22 10:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727
Awbarn, AL
|
Our doe populations across the state are fragmented and divided into lots of subsets of smaller individual populations of females separated by the major road way systems and major habitat breaks. The total number of does existing within each one of these subset population areas will be limited by the amount of suitable habitat…..The number of bucks that can exist in comparison though is not limited to that space.
We’ll use Matt’s 100 doe example for one of these subset areas…….Those 100 does could produce 50 bucks this year……50 bucks next year……..50 the year after that……..50 more the following year and so on……..Over a 5 year time period that “100 doe population” could produce 150-250 bucks that disperse and populate the fringe areas around where these 100 does exist……
The doe population on the other hand is maxed out at 100 because that is as many as social conflict will allow to exist ……Does will not stockpile past a certain threshold in most normal situations……They will try and expand their range on the fringes and the excess will end up as road mortality….which is ultimately why we have been taught to shoot females…..If were to just let it go, road mortality would be what eventually controlled these doe population and held them to a certain maxed out constant of 100 within the subset area…..
Last edited by CNC; 12/04/22 10:40 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803940
12/04/22 10:41 PM
12/04/22 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727
Awbarn, AL
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What really matters is how many of those bucks you kill.......If you have a skewed buck to doe ratio you have a buck problem.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3803970
12/04/22 11:12 PM
12/04/22 11:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,727
Awbarn, AL
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Take Montgomery Co as an actual real world example……..Look at the map and the habitat layout…….Bucks can populate and live in ALL kinds of places within the city limits and around marginal cow pasture type habitat….behind subdivisions, etc…….Large populations of doe groups cannot exist in all of these same areas though……The main populations of doe groups for the county is limited by certain habitat types ……They just cant expand beyond prime fawning habitat due to coyotes.....Reproductive success goes to nil.....Only certain areas within the county have the potential habitat to hold high concentrations of does but most ALL areas of the county has the potential to house stray bucks. When the rut kicks off in Montgomery Co…….bucks leave of all of these fringe areas and converge on the areas where the main doe populations exist. What would happen to the buck numbers existing in all these hidey holes around the county if the guys with the main doe populations decided to start shooting a bunch of their does??......The answer is that there would be a lot less dispersing bucks to fill them. You just reduce the population
Last edited by CNC; 12/04/22 11:18 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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