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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3692564
06/18/22 10:56 PM
06/18/22 10:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742 Elmore County
Frankie
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
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Is it illegal to own just the upper for the SBR.
Say a guy owned a AR rifle and owned a SBR upper that was not in use , is that illegal
Last edited by Frankie; 06/18/22 10:57 PM.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Mdees]
#3692577
06/18/22 11:47 PM
06/18/22 11:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742 Elmore County
Frankie
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
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As long as you never pin the upper to a rifle lower it’s perfectly legal to own a pistol length upper. It’s a tad easier to just buy or build a pistol lower though so you can legally use a short upper without a stamp.? Thanks
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Big Bore]
#3692879
06/19/22 02:41 PM
06/19/22 02:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,377 Helena
3toe
Talking Turkey
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Talking Turkey
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,377
Helena
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Just get a SBA3 or 4 stock and it will be legal! For now anyway
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Big Bore]
#3692883
06/19/22 02:55 PM
06/19/22 02:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845 AL
hunterbuck
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845
AL
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Just get a SBA3 or 4 stock and it will be legal! Not really. If the existing lower was bought as a "rifle", it can never LEGALLY be converted to a pistol. There is a piece of paper out there where it was bought originally that will incriminate you if a problem ever arises. It's very cheap to buy a stripped lower, an lpk, and a brace to stay legal with this stuff.
"You think I care? Roll Damn Tide"
Have you tried Google?
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frogeye]
#3693056
06/19/22 07:15 PM
06/19/22 07:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845 AL
hunterbuck
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845
AL
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Isn't there so.ething about the overall length. Say it was a 12" barrel and with either a sb3 or 4 brace, if it's over 26" it can't be a pistol? Of the lower was sold as a pistol or just a lower, that is. The 26" overall length rule has more to do with whether you can attach a vertical grip on it, which further determines whether it's a rifle or a pistol. If you have a pistol that is UNDER 26" in overall length, you cannot legally attach a vertical grip, or it becomes a SBR and requires registering. If you have a pistol that is OVER 26" in overall length you can legally attach a vertical grip, because according to the ATF, it's no longer concealable as a pistol. The proper way to measure overall length of a pistol is to remove the brace, and measure from the end of the buffer tube to the muzzle...or muzzle break if it is permanently pinned and welded. Outside of the vertical grip 26" OAL deal, pistol/rifle comes down to whether the barrel is 16" or not. You can run a brace on either rifle or pistol...doesn't matter. You can only *legally* run a stock on a rifle, or registered SBR. A lower originally sold as a "pistol" or "other" can be converted to a rifle, and back to a pistol later...and back and forth freely...legally. Just as long as you don't pin a "pistol" upper (under 16 permanent inches) on a "rifle" (stocked) lower. It either has to be a pistol, or a rifle. It can never legally be a SBR unless it is registered. It really makes little sense, but that's the law. I hope that's clear.
"You think I care? Roll Damn Tide"
Have you tried Google?
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3693066
06/19/22 07:25 PM
06/19/22 07:25 PM
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 3,243 Hoover,Al. StateChamps
Big Bore
10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 3,243
Hoover,Al. StateChamps
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You guys worry to much! When they come, they are coming for everything! So keep your magazines stuffed and your powder dry!
Hunting brings out the worst in people.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3693287
06/20/22 09:12 AM
06/20/22 09:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,111 B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,111
B'ham
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I am going to complicate the uncomplicated. I don't think you can legally own a short barrel upper if you don't own a pistol lower. That might not be black and white spelled out in an ATF letter. I don't know the exact wording because I decided to not test those waters from a legal standpoint.
You'd likely be explaining that one to the judge after it cost WAAAAAAAY more to defend yourself than it would have cost to be on the safe side and just buy a pistol lower. I would expect the ATF to charge you first and never give you any benefit of doubt. They typically let you explain things to Judges.
Don't play around with this stuff..... do the oblivious to make sure you are legal. It's not worth the trouble, otherwise IMO.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Goatkiller]
#3693308
06/20/22 09:35 AM
06/20/22 09:35 AM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,120 In front of my lathe
gundoc
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,120
In front of my lathe
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I am going to complicate the uncomplicated. I don't think you can legally own a short barrel upper if you don't own a pistol lower. That might not be black and white spelled out in an ATF letter. I don't know the exact wording because I decided to not test those waters from a legal standpoint.
You'd likely be explaining that one to the judge after it cost WAAAAAAAY more to defend yourself than it would have cost to be on the safe side and just buy a pistol lower. I would expect the ATF to charge you first and never give you any benefit of doubt. They typically let you explain things to Judges.
Don't play around with this stuff..... do the oblivious to make sure you are legal. It's not worth the trouble, otherwise IMO. What he said said....If they can establish intent to pin the short upper on the lower without proper SBR paperwork, you are then guilty of an NFA violation by contructive possession It's cheaper (counting potential legal costs) and easier to just build out or buy a pistol lower and put the short upper on it and you'll be fine....until August (maybe December) anyway
There are two types of gun enthusiasts ... Those who have been F#CKED by PTG and those who will be!
~ unknown
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3693496
06/20/22 02:22 PM
06/20/22 02:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443 HSV AL
jmudler
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443
HSV AL
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Can one have a single dedicated pistol lower, pinned or whatever, and multiple pistol uppers?
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: jmudler]
#3693502
06/20/22 02:39 PM
06/20/22 02:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845 AL
hunterbuck
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845
AL
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Can one have a single dedicated pistol lower, pinned or whatever, and multiple pistol uppers? Yes. There is really no such thing as a "dedicated pistol lower". If you have a lower with a pistol brace on it, you can freely switch out pistol (or even rifle) uppers and be perfectly legal. The only things that would make a lower with a pistol brace illegal on it are: 1. If the overall length is under 26" and it has a vertical grip 2. If the lower started out life as a rifle lower.
"You think I care? Roll Damn Tide"
Have you tried Google?
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Re: SBR question
[Re: hunterbuck]
#3693506
06/20/22 02:44 PM
06/20/22 02:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443 HSV AL
jmudler
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443
HSV AL
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[ 2. If the lower started out life as a rifle lower. That is stupid. How would anyone know?
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: jmudler]
#3693509
06/20/22 02:51 PM
06/20/22 02:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845 AL
hunterbuck
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,845
AL
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[ 2. If the lower started out life as a rifle lower. That is stupid. How would anyone know? The 4473 when it was originally sold/transferred is 100% irrefutable and tells what the lower began life as. If the serial number gets run, they know immediately. Dumb? Yep. But, that's the law.
"You think I care? Roll Damn Tide"
Have you tried Google?
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3693536
06/20/22 03:35 PM
06/20/22 03:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742 Elmore County
Frankie
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
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Was thinking the same way
Id. bought just the pistol upper , I could say I just hadn't bought the lower .
BUT , how much would it cost to prove it.
I'm just getting the whole damn deal be done
Last edited by Frankie; 06/20/22 03:37 PM.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: hunterbuck]
#3693577
06/20/22 04:55 PM
06/20/22 04:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443 HSV AL
jmudler
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443
HSV AL
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[ 2. If the lower started out life as a rifle lower. That is stupid. How would anyone know? The 4473 when it was originally sold/transferred is 100% irrefutable and tells what the lower began life as. If the serial number gets run, they know immediately. Dumb? Yep. But, that's the law. What if it was a 80% lower..............
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3693583
06/20/22 05:04 PM
06/20/22 05:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,377 Helena
3toe
Talking Turkey
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Talking Turkey
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,377
Helena
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To my knowledge, this is one of the reasons to buy a stripped lower and build it out. It started out it's life transgendered. As far as the ATF is concerned it didn't know if it wanted to be a rifle or pistol. You could legally swap back and forth as long as you didn't:
1. If the overall length is under 26" and it has a vertical grip. It becomes an SBR. 2. Put a rifle stock on a pistol upper. That would become a SBR. Any pistol upper has to have a brace vs. stock.
Someone correct me if I am wrong there.
Last edited by 3toe; 06/20/22 05:06 PM.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: jmudler]
#3693593
06/20/22 05:24 PM
06/20/22 05:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742 Elmore County
Frankie
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
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[ 2. If the lower started out life as a rifle lower. That is stupid. How would anyone know? The 4473 when it was originally sold/transferred is 100% irrefutable and tells what the lower began life as. If the serial number gets run, they know immediately. Dumb? Yep. But, that's the law. What if it was a 80% lower.............. They about to change that , all 80% will be sold with a SN#. check out bidens last executive orders
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3693596
06/20/22 05:26 PM
06/20/22 05:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742 Elmore County
Frankie
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,742
Elmore County
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You wanting 80% lowers you better be buying them up. All 80% stuff not just ar
Last edited by Frankie; 06/20/22 05:26 PM.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: jmudler]
#3694266
06/21/22 05:17 PM
06/21/22 05:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,120 In front of my lathe
gundoc
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,120
In front of my lathe
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[ 2. If the lower started out life as a rifle lower. That is stupid. How would anyone know? The 4473 when it was originally sold/transferred is 100% irrefutable and tells what the lower began life as. If the serial number gets run, they know immediately. Dumb? Yep. But, that's the law. What if it was a 80% lower.............. 80% Lowers can be either just like a stripped lower
There are two types of gun enthusiasts ... Those who have been F#CKED by PTG and those who will be!
~ unknown
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Re: SBR question
[Re: Frankie]
#3694710
06/22/22 08:10 AM
06/22/22 08:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443 HSV AL
jmudler
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,443
HSV AL
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They about to change that , all 80% will be sold with a SN#.
check out bidens last executive orders
I do not see 80% lowers requiring SNs the only thing passed is it is illegal for one who sells 80% lowers can not sell kits as a combo with instructions. If you see anything sooner, please post a link.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
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Re: SBR question
[Re: jmudler]
#3704234
07/07/22 01:23 PM
07/07/22 01:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,120 In front of my lathe
gundoc
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,120
In front of my lathe
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They about to change that , all 80% will be sold with a SN#.
check out bidens last executive orders
I do not see 80% lowers requiring SNs the only thing passed is it is illegal for one who sells 80% lowers can not sell kits as a combo with instructions. If you see anything sooner, please post a link. Aparenlty what I was referring to got stripped out. The original version basically said any gun built from an 80% lower would have to be serialized within 180 days of passage and any new 80% frames would have to be sold with an SN#. The problem with having current guns serialized was they were sayig only Licensed manfacturers could serialize them with a SN# assigned to you by the state. So if you were assigned an SN# then engraved it yourself you would/could be charged as an unlicensed manufacturer. The problem with having a licensed manufacturer do it is the cost involved. They have to file and pay ITAR taxes on each gun manfactured and I;m sure they'd charge for the serialization too... Glad to see that got stripped out
There are two types of gun enthusiasts ... Those who have been F#CKED by PTG and those who will be!
~ unknown
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