I'm guessing we all agree it's scientific fact that photoperiod determines the timing of the rut? And my assumption is that this is part of the grander design of creation so that fawns drop at the "right" time for where they live for the greatest percent of survival? Let's be honest, other than it seldom snows in Mobile, the weather is about the same from TN to FL. I mean, crap, it seldom snows in Huntsville for that matter. Removing the infrequent extremes, the whole state is pretty much the same "weather wise". In the Summer I'll leave my house in central AL and it's 95 degrees, drive to the beach for a week and it's low 90's. I've been in Mobile in December plenty of times and froze my gonads off.

So my question is: Is the photoperiod really THAT much different across the state of Alabama?? I mean, the entire states of the Midwest, literally 1/4 to 1/2 of the whole nation, has an early/mid-November rut. That indicates to me that the photoperiod is exceedingly large and unified. I'm hard pressed to believe something as atmospheric/global as the photoperiod can be that varied across something as globally insignificant as one state??
And I've always heard the narratives about stocking deer from different states, but geez that was 75 to 80 years ago. And if photoperiod triggers estrous, not genetics, wouldn't the predisposition of those original deer be so distant and diluted by now that's it's no longer a factor? Cross-breeding with native deer, and simply living in this locale for 80 generations of fawns seemingly would acclimate them to OUR photoperiod.

Is it reasonable to postulate that (sans maybe a few isolated pockets) the majority of the state does indeed begin "the rut" at the same time, BUT in places with a more out of whack sex ratio / age structure / whatever, the cycles begin in varying degrees of fervor, then each successive cycle (unbred does) get stronger and stronger, therefore certain parts of the state "see" it later (because it's suddenly so much stronger in that isolated locale)? I've just hunted all over Alabama for 30+ years, and although it's not predictable or even customary, I've seen legitimate rutting behavior in October/November/December in places that people will just get downright pissy arguing that their deer don't rut till the season goes out!! I've gone whole years before and never saw much behavior the whole season.

Your thoughts?

Isn’t 70-80 years closer to 35-40 generations at max? Probably much less. That may seem significant to us when we only live around 80 years but it’s only a blink of the eye genetically speaking.

I think the whole purpose is to coincide with spring/summer green up and the proper vegetation stages mirroring the stages of pregnancy of the mamas. It revolves around the prenatal care of the doe. If you look at spring green up for instance it can vary by a matter of several weeks or even a month or more from south Alabama to north. My parents used to live in Mentone, AL……I would talk to my mom about the flowers blooming out and such here and the same stages of growth would be weeks later at her location. Those changes in timing of the vegetation greenup and maturation is what impacts the timing of the does going into estrous IMO

Lots of good questions and I don’t know all the answers. My understanding is deer breed so that their fawns have the best chance of survival 200 days later. How that gets into a deer’s know how is beyond me and I don’t know if the photoperiod helps with that. For any day in the fall with a given length, there is an equal one in the spring.

I do think the transplant of deer largely dictates the different rut periods we see today. A 100 years is nothing in terms of genetics for a large animal like a whitetail. Deer in Bankhead rut at a vastly different time and have good genetics for antlers. It’s hard to say one genetic factor should be diluted by now, but the other isn’t. Same for Cahaba.

If deer adapted so fast they would evolve to learn not to come out in food plots or eat the yellow stuff in daylight. Or eat either at night around Timber2.

Matt Brock can set the record straight.

I'm guessing you've been thinking this over all day while selling insurance?

He must be getting fitted for a new dress.......

Weeds dictate the rut…

I don't think the photo / daylight thing works in regards to the rut like you think it does. I don't think most deer from the Tenn line to the Gulf begin rut at the same time. Fetal studies don't lie. What people think they see and what actually is happening in the woods is often two different things. I do know what happens in other areas of where whitetails range is much different than what happens here. No other place like Alabama.

Not natural laws stopping but a very unique genetic make up brought in unnaturally from many different areas combined with some natural and unnatural isolation. Well this was in response to a statement that has been removed now.

This is pretty spot on. Photoperiod is scientifically the answer, but our deer are screwed up from years of restocking.

I don’t believe it is photoperiod that sets them off. If that was the case, deer in the northern central time zone would rut the same time as the deer in the southern central time zone. Not sure what it is, but God designed it so…

I am a believer in the photoperiod theory. However I believe that the deer that have survived to breed pass on the more favorable times to come into estrous. After hunting in the Carolinas for a while it seems the deer closer to the coast breed before the deer that live more inland. Case in point, got a few friends that live in Charleston and hunt around that area. They see rut activity mid September to first of October. Here midway in the state we see the rut kick in around Halloween. The upstate kicks in around mid November. It’s my belief these deer adapted to the green up that occurs where they live. The same holds true for North Carolina. Alabama is an outlier because of the restocking, I believe the majority of deer here in my area were restocked from native herds. When does from the coast were bred during their second cycle (as in recently restocked deer), those fawns had a better survival rate than those bred in the first cycle. The trend continued on down the line until now where the does in my neck of the woods come into estrous later than their coastal counterparts.

Your mileage may vary on that theory. I cut my teeth hunting Choccolocco WMA and the rut there varies significantly between zone A and zone B. Go a little further south in the national forest and it’s completely different. It’s definitely got to be an outlier in terms of the photoperiod being the only factor as to when they rut. My only conclusion is that those deer still hold genetics from the restocking that tell them when to rut.

Sorry, I was trying not to get ahead of the conversation….I tend to do that. But yes, we have manipulated what is going on through stockings and what we have also done is manipulated the landscape in manners that change the dietary avalaibility to the doe populations…..For example, lets just say the normal dietary needs naturally require “X” amount of protein during July from “Y” group of plant species. But instead we have completely changed what is available due to agriculture. All of these man made changes and constraints hamper natural selection from taking the new stocking back to the original smooth transitions.

I think photoperiod has something to do with it. But what about deer that live in close proximity to large rivers that are exposed to the same amount of daylight, but don't drop fawns until later? Did the gravid does just "know that if they dropped when everyone else did that their fawns would be washed away?" Probably not. I've heard some pretty wild lectures from neurobiologists and I really believe that there is some "memory" component to genetic, but I'm not saying that there is specific "coding" to drop in April, May, etc. I'm suggesting that the animals that did drop at the most opportune time (basic needs) were the ones that survived and bred. Hence, they were "selected for" in genetic terms. So, the deer that had a proclivity, whatever the stimulus, to breed at a certain time were the ones that continued the population. I'm not sure where I was going with this, but happy Friday!

I got no clue and find it interesting as hell. I mean you put four women in the same office and their cycles sync up in months. Give a gazillion does the better part of a century and they still can't get on the same page. Maybe their shorter life spans in the wild have more to do with it than we think? If the average doe that makes it to maturity live 3 to 4 years she isn't not around long enough to get the updates and pass em on
. They just keep running on their original genetic code from their heritage? I probably know some humans like this to, but that is a different topic for another day.

Wouldn’t her next heat cycle be based off her conception date? If so some does get missed first time around and get bred on their next cycle 30 days later. Yearlings sometimes come in for the first time at the end of the season. From where I live according to fetal studies we have 3 different ruts within 20 miles of the house. From what I’ve seen those studies are very accurate…crazy but nice.

Is there any studies on the annual variation in estrous timing of individual does??......If a doe comes into heat this year on Jan 24th…..will she come into heat on that same date next year? If not how much variation is occurring amongst individuals? What dates do her daughters come into heat? If natural selection is what dictates the rut timing then it doesn’t adjust things by the individual themself adjusting but rather by the outliers having some kind of advantage that gives them a higher reproductive rate that they pass on.

I agree.

I was assuming that does drop a fawn each year, and those fawns reach adulthood (breeding age) within the first year, so each yearly crop is a "generation". Crap, you may be right, I dunno It's plenty of time though!