My whole point in asking this question was to make the point that in some areas (i.e. mine- North Tuscaloosa county) there is not a biological advantage to killing does because we don't have enough to begin with! The same is true for killing hens-- we shouldn't do it, but it just seems like the mindset on killing does is that we "should do it", no matter how low the deer population.

I overreacted BigT and folks. I know BigT didn't mean any harm. My sincere apologies!

Remington270, where's that "mindset" coming from? "We should kill does" information is coming from somewhere. By what data points is that management tool generated?

Not Remington270, but ultimately that mindset is generated by the state saying/implying that we have enough does that hunters can kill 2 a day for 100+ days and not have a negative impact on the health of the herd. Surely if that was not the case, they would change the bag limit wouldn't you think? Kind of like the state of Tennessee thinks that they have a large and healthy enough turkey population in certain counties to allow hunters to kill hens in the fall without adversely affecting the overall health of the turkey population.

Hmmm... well, 49er would like this statement: I don't go by what the state says but rather what our data says. If we need to kill does, we kill them. If we don't, we don't. If we need to kill X number of does, then I whack'em and attempt to get it over with even if I have to do it in a shorter time period than the law may allow.

It's hard for the state to implement a one size fits all.

And in tn we can kill 3 does a day too.

And what do the data say about poult recruitment and the hen mortality rates and their impact on the turkey population in Alabama and whether or not killing hens in the fall in certain counties should be allowed?

Nobody has posted any sound, scientific reason for why hens should not be killed - only personal opinions. Kind of like the duck hunters that think it wrong to shoot hens even though they are legal (and limits are set based on surveys of species numbers) and then berate hunters who kill what is legal be it drakes or hens.

See my second post on this thread, bc's, preachers and a couple others. What more scientific data do you need? I can give you a bunch of copy and paste from biologists from the internet, but it says basically the same things as we have.

data, who needs data. Charles Kelly said NO DAMN HEN SHOOTING!!!!!

I am not saying it is necessary to kill hens to "manage" a flock, but I'm a scientist - post data if you got it. You got recruitment/mortality/hunter kill numbers for the Alabama flock? No offense, but all I have read in this thread is a bunch of could of's and maybe's by a bunch of accomplished turkey killers. If killing hens in the fall is so detrimental to the flock why are there still turkey surviving in states with a fall season?

And from your earlier post, "you manage them by improving habitat (emphasis added by me so nobody gets offended that I am modifying quoted text) and nesting areas and having more hens to have more male birds raised", correlates well with this study from South Carolina where recruitment, while on a downward trend which is exaggerated due to somewhat of an outlying point, stayed high initially during the period when/where fall seasons were allowed but started declining statewide (even in areas without a fall season) and have continued to decline.

There isn't any hard data for Alabama and won't be until they quit guessing about the harvest every year and get some kind of real check in system for us to review and study. The fact that AL has not allowed the harvesting of hens has been working for years and the population has held up well witout it.

There are several states, heck probably most allow fall hens now and from the one that I have had a lot of experience with it has been detrimental to the flock.

Also here is a good article from the NWTF that was published recently. A good read IMO. http://www.nwtf.org/articles.php?id=13736

from your article

"Increasing harvest pressure on the turkey population, particularly by removing hens in the fall, could lead to a dramatic reduction in the statewide turkey population. Additionally, since there is no time during the fall when deer season is closed, there are concerns with the likelihood of a high incidental harvest of turkeys by deer hunters, hunter safety related to the use of rifles, and the dilemma over the presence of deer bait during the fall."

YEKRUT, I enjoyed reading the article you posted. Thanks. A turkey's like a rabbit... everything wants to eat it!

Exactly, from the time momma squirts them out as an egg to the day it dies it is at the top of just about every animal in the woods main menu.

I don't know of any state that allows hens to be shot in the fall that also allows 5 gobblers in the spring like Alabama does either. In Missouri I think you can kill a couple fall hens but then you can only shoot two spring gobblers also. Seems to me like the ratio out there is alot closer to 1/1 than what we have but I'd lots rather get to shoot 5 gobblers anyway.
5 gobblers is a bunch of gobblers, especially if a guy doesn't travel all over the state do do it. You get a bunch of folks killing 5 (or more) gobblers then you better have as many hens as possible to keep the turkey factory running at top production

There's obviously enough biological evidence for why they shouldn't be shot hence why its illegal.No need in discussing it any further.

polt mortality is much higher than a fawn's. also, turkey habitat has and is being destroyed, and they don't adapt as well as deer. i can't imagine how much the population would fall if there was a hen season (in my area).

Just for the record I think all the white tailed goats should be killed off to make room for more turkey habitat. All they do is eat up all the turkey food.

That is the problem as a whole with Alabama's management plan. There is no real hard data for deer or turkeys. I also have a problem with the one size fits all management system for the whole state. There is plenty of states that manage wildlife according to different zones.

Just like in the following article there is plenty of areas that even deer struggle to make it due to predator populations. For instance in Mobile county we not only have the usual predators but also a very large population of black bears, but the state does not seem to worry about the impact on the deer herd.

https://www.gon.com/article.php?id=347